Did God create evil?

[Californee Girl]

A University professor at a well known institution of higher learning challenged his students with this question. "Did God create everything that exists?"

A student bravely replied, "Yes he did!"

"God created everything?" The professor asked.

"Yes sir, he certainly did," the student replied.

The professor answered, "If God created everything; then God created evil. And, since evil exists, and according to the principal that our works define who we are, then we can assume God is evil."

The student became quiet and did not answer the professor's hypothetical definition. The professor, quite pleased with himself, boasted to the students that he had proven once more that the Christian faith was a myth.

Another student raised his hand and said, "May I ask you a question, professor?"

"Of course", replied the professor.

The student stood up and asked, "Professor, does cold exist?"

"What kind of question is this? Of course it exists. Have you never been cold?" The other students snickered at the young man's question.

The young man replied, "In fact sir, cold does not exist. According to the laws of physics, what we consider cold is in reality the absence of heat. Every body or object is susceptible to study when it has or transmits energy, and heat is what makes a body or matter have or transmit energy. Absolute zero (-460F) is the total absence of heat; and all matter becomes inert and incapable of reaction at that temperature. Cold does not exist. We have created this word to describe how we feel if we have no heat."

The student continued, "Professor, does darkness exist?"

The professor responded, "Of course it does."

The student replied, "Once again you are wrong sir, darkness does not exist either. Darkness is in reality the absence of light. Light we can study, but not darkness. In fact, we can use Newton's prism to break white light into many colors and study the various wavelengths of each color. You cannot measure darkness. A simple ray of light can break into a world of darkness and illuminate it. How can you know how dark a certain space is? You measure the amount of light present. Isn't this correct? Darkness is a term used by man to describe what happens when there is no light present."

Finally the young man asked the professor, "Sir, does evil exist?"


Now uncertain, the professor responded, "Of course, as I have already said. We see it everyday. It is in the daily examples of man's inhumanity to man. It is in the multitude of crime and violence everywhere in the world. These manifestations are nothing else but evil.

To this the student replied, "Evil does not exist, sir, or at least it does not exist unto itself. Evil is simply the absence of God. It is just like darkness and cold, a word that man has created to describe the absence of God. God did not create evil. Evil is the result of what happens when man does not have God's love present in his heart. It's like the cold that comes when there is no heat, or the darkness that comes when there is no light."

The professor sat down.

[Kahlua Kid]

Wow... that is really really thought provoking.

Thanks for sharing.

[beautiful_mess38]

I liked that Cali girl. Very interesting.

[Yosemite Joy]

Hmmm.

[Yosemite_Wolf]

very good. but even more so.... there is a god in every culture... god... thor, shiva, buddha. etc etc. are they all good and warm on every day?

[Dawn]

I guess He did because He did a lot of evil stuff in the Bible.

I'm only interested in peace. That's why I threw my Bible away a long time ago. I will not keep a book in my house that has violence in it.

[David_V]

A University professor at a well known institution of higher learning challenged his students with this question. "Did God create everything that exists?"....
Such an event never happened. Creating stories like that make Christians look bad. Why not deal with the truth, or deal with reality, instead of making up such stories? Is the truth that bad?

The "problem with evil" argument is an old one that theists have trouble answering. It's an argument that's even older than Christianity itself. They've have thousands of years to come up with an answer, but have failed every time.

Study up on Theodicy - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodicy

[kellieflan]

very good. but even more so.... there is a god in every culture... god... thor, shiva, buddha. etc etc. are they all good and warm on every day?

I believe the Hindu god Shiva is sometimes considered the destroyer or transformer...

[Dawn]

Thank you for posting the link David_V.

I read it and the part I understood the most was: "A perfect God is not only good but also evil."

[David_V]

Thank you for posting the link David_V.

I read it and the part I understood the most was: "A perfect God is not only good but also evil."
There have been thousands of such "perfect" gods throughout history. One of those gods was born of a virgin, was born in late December, then we hear nothing about him until he turns 30, walked on water, healed the sick, was persecuted, died on a cross, and arose from the dead 3 days later. You can read more about him here. (http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_jcpa5.htm)

[Yosemite Joy]

There have been thousands of such "perfect" gods throughout history. One of those gods was born of a virgin, was born in late December, then we hear nothing about him until he turns 30, walked on water, healed the sick, was persecuted, died on a cross, and arose from the dead 3 days later. You can read more about him here. (http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_jcpa5.htm)

I believe there is a documentary on this as well. Very interesting.

[David_V]

I believe there is a documentary on this as well. Very interesting.
There is also a book.... for those that still read books.... published in the late 1940's but is still considered THEE reference book on the subject:
The Hero With a Thousand Faces. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hero_with_a_Thousand_Faces)

[Edana]

That wasnt meant to be an argumentative post.

[David_V]

That wasnt meant to be an argumentative post.
Who's arguing? :shrug:

[Dawn]

I didn't think anyone was arguing either...

[jakobscalpel]

This subject was mentioned briefly in Julian by Gore Vidal (just finished it). Excellent book about Emperor Julian Augustus and his struggles to over come the "Galileans".

[Edana]

Such an event never happened. Creating stories like that make Christians look bad. Why not deal with the truth, or deal with reality, instead of making up such stories? Is the truth that bad?

The "problem with evil" argument is an old one that theists have trouble answering. It's an argument that's even older than Christianity itself. They've have thousands of years to come up with an answer, but have failed every time.

Study up on Theodicy - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodicy

I find this argumentative. First off, the OP is two years old. It was meant to be some cute little fwd and not a debate. But you dig it up and turn it into one by arguing whether or not the event even happened. It was an interesting point, nothing more or less. My studies are sufficient, thanks.

[David_V]

I find this argumentative.
I found the made up story to be argumentative and insulting.

First off, the OP is two years old. It was meant to be some cute little fwd and not a debate.
The age of the posting is irrelevant.

But you dig it up and turn it into one by arguing whether or not the event even happened.
It never happened yet it was presented as something that was true.

It was an interesting point, nothing more or less. My studies are sufficient, thanks.
I found the "point" of the story to be sophomoric and insulting. No professor worth his salt would just sit down after such an inane argument. And when presented with such stories are non believers just supposed to sit in the corner and shut up? If you post something, it's going to get discussed. That's what happens in public forums.

[Dawn]

I agree !

[Yosemite Joy]

This is the old standby of without god people would have no morals, ethics. But morality doesn't come from a belief in God. "Evil is simply the absence of God" in the OP is insulting and laughable. Look at all the evil that has come from religion, religious people, and crusades. I can't think of a single war that an atheist began (unless you include the Romans massacring the first of the Christians for being "Atheists", ie against the Roman Gods). But I digress.


One does not need the threat of a scary boogeyman sending them to Hell to be a Non Evil person, and to say that one does shows that you may not have sufficient studies after all.

[David_V]

This is the old standby of without god people would have no morals, ethics. But morality doesn't come from a belief in God.
My favorite quote on morality is:
Morality is what guides you when there's neither promise of reward nor fear of punishment, and when no one's watching.

Morality comes from humanities innate sense of empathy, not from any god or religion.

"Evil is simply the absence of God" in the OP is insulting and laughable. Look at all the evil that has come from religion, religious people, and crusades. I can't think of a single war that an atheist began (unless you include the Romans massacring the first of the Christians for being "Atheists", ie against the Roman Gods). But I digress.
The standard reply to that would entail mentioning the "atheist" dictators of the USSR and China. They miss the point entirely. Religions, especially the latest version of the Christian one, claim their god is love, they claim that their religion makes one moral. Their claims are false ones - Bush proves that. Look at the invasion he started just for his ego and "political capital." No morals there, yet he claims his god wanted him to do it.

One does not need the threat of a scary boogeyman sending them to Hell to be a Non Evil person, and to say that one does shows that you may not have sufficient studies after all.
Apparently that threat doesn't do much good. The Federal Prison System compiled statistics on inmates entering the system:

Catholic 39.164%
Protestant 35.008%
Muslim 7.273%
American Indian 3.222%
Nation 2.320%
Rasta 1.987%
Jewish 1.773%
Church of Christ 1.744%
Pentecostal 1.463%
Moorish 1.426%
Buddhist 1.180%
Jehovah Witness 0.890%
Adventist 0.831%
Orthodox 0.502%
Mormon 0.399%
Scientology 0.254%
Atheist 0.209%
Hindu 0.159%
Santeria 0.157%
Sikh 0.019%
Bahai 0.012%
Krishna 0.009%

If Atheists have no morals, then why are Atheists underrepresented in prison populations? If having a religion makes one moral, then why are they overrepresented in prisons?

[kellieflan]

Verrry interesting prison statistics! Who would have thunk it? I guess that's why there are so many "recovering Catholics," (and I resemble that remark!).

[Yosemite Joy]

I guess that's why there are so many "recovering Catholics," (and I resemble that remark!).

I second that.

As far as the commie=atheist argument, I failed to touch on that with my post. That argument goes with the christian=capitalist push.

http://atheism.about.com/od/thebible/a/communism.htm

Has some interesting points on the topic of commie=christian, but we are off topic now.

[David_V]

Has some interesting points on the topic of commie=christian, but we are off topic now.
Well.... I think the modern NeoCon style Republican = fascism... but that's way off topic.

My point was not to make anyone look bad, but to show that a person or society does not need a religion or any god belief to be good. Canada has a lower rate of believers than the USA, but they have a lower crime rate. The same for most of Europe. If religions facilitated moral behaviors, wouldn't the crime rates, or "goodness" of those areas be the opposite?

[Yosemite Joy]

I found this while looking through google for a map of crime statistics in the US to prove that the Southern US and other heavily Christian states have the most crime.

As everybody knows, people are born not believing in God. Therefore, they are born atheists, which means "no God." Knowing that, common sense suggests that all criminals were originally atheists. That includes the most heinous criminals, such as Adolf Hitler, Joseph Stalin, and Tupac Shakur. Criminals who commit religious crimes against Christianity and other proper religions tend to empathize with other anti-Christian atheists (pardon the redundancy). As for criminals who commit crimes against atheists in the name of Christianity, like homophobes, they are simply trying to repress their atheistic/homosexual tendancies, but rather than act Christian about it, they take it to an atheistic extreme.

All criminals have been atheists at one time in their lives? I don't know about you, but if there was ever a reason to outlaw atheism and other non-Christian religions, this is it.

It almost seems like satire. But it is not.

[Dawn]

I believe it. I'm always leery of the so called Christians. I have known a lot of them over the years who did really bad things. But they always claim to be a Christian.

[Dodgergirl]

Christians are capable of any of the atrocities anyone else is. Christians have the same free will as anyone else. They are not perfect, and if they claim to be, then they have no need for a Savior. Some of the 'best' Christians who have been tempted have fallen, the only one who could resist temptation was Jesus, that's because He is who He is and we are not. We are supposed to mirror Him, but none of us do, cause if we could, well, you get the idea...

Not trying to convert anyone into believing, as it will not happen, just as I cannot be converted into not believing.

[Patagoniamaniac]

Perfectly stated Dodge........Word of wisdom... I'm so glad I get the idea... and... that I am forgiven by His Grace

[Dawn]

I don't think Jesus was perfect. There were other ancient well documented stories of when Jesus was a boy and he killed his playmate and did other awful things. But these were banned from the Bible because Jesus is "supposed to be perfect".

"Jesus and a playmate were on a roof, playing, when the boy fell—or as some said, Jesus pushed him. The boy died. His parents, of course, wanted to know what happened, and everyone tried to get Jesus to confess. You pushed him off the roof, didn’t you? Upset, Jesus raised the boy from the dead and had him tell everyone, No, really, I just slipped—it was an accident."

Source: http://www.progressiveu.org/190000-the-evil-jesus-and-other-untold-bible-stories

[David_V]

...It almost seems like satire. But it is not.
It's sad, but there are people out there that really believe that stuff. :(

Sure, we are all born Atheist - lacking a belief in gods. Religion is a learned behavior. The quote mentioned several people that were raised with a religious background yet did not turn out right. Why didn't the religious upbringing not prevent that? Also, notice how they combined the two groups that is it OK to hate; Atheists and homosexuals.

[David_V]

....Not trying to convert anyone into believing, as it will not happen, just as I cannot be converted into not believing.
I'm not trying to convert anyone. I'm just pointing out that having a religion does not automatically make one a moral person. I'm just pointing out that morals do not come from religions nor did religions invent morals.

[kellieflan]

The Ethical Brain: The Science of Our Moral Dilemmas (P.S.) by Michael S. Gazzaniga

It's in my stack of stuff to read, haven't read it yet, but was strongly recommended to this book when having a similar discussion to this thread, with a friend of mine.

The book (I believe) posits that we have a certain amount of ethics hard-wired into our noggins at birth.

[Edana]

Im clearly outnumbered by all the highly intelligent non-believers here rolleyes:

I got a fwd today that was comparing christians to jack-o-laterns. Do I believe that God is really performing the pagan practice of carving pumpkins? No. Did I enjoy the fuzzy message about how God transforms a person? Yes. This is a similar message. The bottom line is that you cant prove the non-existance of God any more than I can prove the existance. Im in the spirituality threads to discuss and encourage my fellow believers. Youre here to .... prove the christians wrong? But ya know, whos arguing, right? And your statement about any professor worth his own salt is a matter of opinion. Maybe he realized his err and was saved at that moment ;)

I will not argue with you over this. I am FAR from perfect but as a christian Im in a transformation and it gives me hope. Im not shoving my opinions down your throat so please dont attack my hope. Ive lost people that I care for in these arguments and I regret that. I let my need to argue and be right win out over my need to love and be loved. I cant allow that to happen again. How about this, may God judge between us. :grin:

[kellieflan]

Dear Edana,

Not that you were speaking, necessarily, to me in particular, but I want to let you know that I am a believer: I believe in a lot of different stuff, and I like people to believe in their own stuff, too. I find comfort in a lot of things, including the idea that we may be born with certain moralities hard-wired into our brains, and in meditation, and in prayer.

In our family, we've had falling outs, too, over religion and politics (of course we have: we're Irish!) and that is painful. I admire your willingness to see that in your own light. I may not agree precisely with you (for instance, I prefer people or religions not dictate what I or my friends do with our bodies, or in our bedrooms), but the Dalai Lama said (I heard some one say he said) "Kindness is everything." I don't think you are outnumbered, if you meant that sincerely.

Now have a lovely day, and I mean that sincerely. Meanwhile, I am burning, not browning, the beef! :grin:

[David_V]

The Ethical Brain: The Science of Our Moral Dilemmas (P.S.) by Michael S. Gazzaniga

It's in my stack of stuff to read, haven't read it yet, but was strongly recommended to this book when having a similar discussion to this thread, with a friend of mine.

The book (I believe) posits that we have a certain amount of ethics hard-wired into our noggins at birth.
It only makes sense to me. A species would not last long if it spent a lot of time killing off their own. I want to live in a society where murder is not common. That way I, and my descendants, have a better chance of surviving.

[David_V]

..... The bottom line is that you cant prove the non-existance of God any more than I can prove the existance.
I do not have to prove that a god does not exist just like I do not have to prove that Unicorns do not exist.

Im in the spirituality threads to discuss and encourage my fellow believers. Youre here to .... prove the christians wrong?
If anyone makes a false claim, I will prove them wrong if I can. It does not matter if they are Christian or Zoroastrian. The claim that having a religion, or a god belief, makes them moral, or somehow imparts morality, is wrong.

But ya know, whos arguing, right? And your statement about any professor worth his own salt is a matter of opinion. Maybe he realized his err and was saved at that moment
In a mythical story, you can believe anything. The story is an obvious fabrication.

I will not argue with you over this.
We're having a discussion, not an argument.

How about this, may God judge between us. :grin:
Yes, Horus will be the judge.:cool:

[Yosemite Joy]

Im clearly outnumbered by all the highly intelligent non-believers here rolleyes:

I will not argue with you over this. I am FAR from perfect but as a christian Im in a transformation and it gives me hope. Im not shoving my opinions down your throat so please dont attack my hope. Ive lost people that I care for in these arguments and I regret that. I let my need to argue and be right win out over my need to love and be loved. I cant allow that to happen again. How about this, may God judge between us. :grin:

No one is attacking you personally. At least that is not how I read it. But maybe instead of just CS Lewis, try some Dawkins or Sagan as well. Sufficient studies should include those opposite of their own base opinion.

[jakobscalpel]

I do not have to prove that a god does not exist just like I do not have to prove that Unicorns do not exist.

I hadn't seen this particular comment before :) I'm with you on everything else in this thread David_V, except this. A unicorn is presented as an actual physical being but god/gawd/gods are mostly transcendent and impossible to observe directly. So there is a difference here. A unicorn can be disapproved by lack of observation but a god cannot. This is why agnosticism is the only logical position. Of course, the preponderance of likelihoods supports your belief, but it'll be a cold day in hell before statistics becomes a logical proof.

[Red Mule]

Jacob,

Amazingly well put. I very much enjoy such clear logic. I guess the only real proof, and then it would still be hear-say, is that if someone came back from being dead (and I mean really dead and not just recovering from a stopped heart) and said, "Yup. I was there and I saw him."

David_V reminds me of an roommate I once had that loved it when people came to our door with bible in hand. He would politely invite them in and proceed to "discuss" why he thought everything they believed in was nonsense. Of course, that wasn't what they were really there for and usually left quite quickly.

[David_V]

I hadn't seen this particular comment before :) I'm with you on everything else in this thread David_V, except this. A unicorn is presented as an actual physical being but god/gawd/gods are mostly transcendent and impossible to observe directly.
A god is not so "transcendent" when it is claimed to have created everything or presented as an actual being of some kind that actually exists.

So there is a difference here. A unicorn can be disapproved by lack of observation but a god cannot.
Part of the problem there is how can something that can't even be defined by those that claim it exists be disproved?

This is why agnosticism is the only logical position. Of course, the preponderance of likelihoods supports your belief, but it'll be a cold day in hell before statistics becomes a logical proof.
I'm not using statistics, but the observation that gods, unicorns, gryphons, and Tralfamidorians, all come from the same source - the human imagination.

Then we get into the problem that extraordinary claims need extraordinary proofs. The level of proof is different for claiming a god exists then for claiming you have a penny in your pocket.

Then there's another problem; that which is presented without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.

The original Agnostic position, that the question about the existence of a god is unknowable, to me, is untenable. How do you know that can't be known? A modern version of Agnosticism, the "I don't know" position is not all that logical. Based on the information available, I and many others, see no reason to believe a god exists.

Most that claim the Agnostic position do so via a strawman version of Atheism. For most Atheists, the word Atheist simply means "one that lacks a belief in gods." It's a default position. No statement of no gods need be made. All you have to do to be an Atheist is not believe in a god or gods, or goddesses, and so on.

One last thing for those that believe; please - continue to believe. No disrespect is intended. No conversion is hoped for. You do not have to agree with me. There is room on this planet for many beliefs, or non beliefs. As long as we treat each other in a humane manner, all will be fine.

[David_V]

Jacob,

Amazingly well put. I very much enjoy such clear logic. I guess the only real proof, and then it would still be hear-say, is that if someone came back from being dead (and I mean really dead and not just recovering from a stopped heart) and said, "Yup. I was there and I saw him."
That hasn't happened yet.

David_V reminds me of an roommate I once had that loved it when people came to our door with bible in hand. He would politely invite them in and proceed to "discuss" why he thought everything they believed in was nonsense. Of course, that wasn't what they were really there for and usually left quite quickly.
While that is fun, and does have it's place, I usually tell them no thanks and close the door. It is rude to go around knocking on doors trying to sell your religion, so, in spite of their rudeness, I'm polite and just say no.