Day of Worship?

[Californee Girl]

I just read a publication that says the mark of the beast is Sunday worship. Not a stamped number or an implanted chip, but having the wrong day of worship in your mind and your hand doing work that shouldnt be done on the Sabbath.

Anyone wanna discuss that?

[CatdaBrat]

Is that something about how people have said Sunday worship was invented, without Biblical authority, by the Roman Catholic Church?

[concerned]

The Bible says that God created the earth in 6 days and on the seventh day he rested. The seventh was chosen to be the Sabbath Day, and when the calendar was created Sunday was the seventh day and so our Sabbath Day.

[oakhurstleaf]

Weren't the days (as in their names like Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, etc) of the week and even 9 months of the calendar year created by Pagans?

So maybe it's unholy, unChristian, whatever to acknowledge "Sunday" by any other name than the Sabbath. Ridiculous maybe...but seems Orthodox Christians have a serious issue with Pagan customs and origins.

[Choco-chick]

Originally posted by Californee Girl:
I just read a publication that says the mark of the beast is Sunday worship. Not a stamped number or an implanted chip, but having the wrong day of worship in your mind and your hand doing work that shouldnt be done on the Sabbath.

Anyone wanna discuss that?

I believe worshiping the Lord on any day is good. I believe it doesn't matter to Him what day you pick as long as you do give one day a week to Him.

[Californee Girl]

Cat - Yes it is.

Concerned - thats a theory Id like to look into. Do you happen to have a reference?

OakhurstLeaf - Yes, youre partially right.

Choco - Thats the belief that I always held as well, but this book that I just read says that that is the biggest deception of them all. Puts quite a spin on things, doesnt it?

[CatdaBrat]

Religion sure comes with an awful lot of rules!

[John @ 3300ft.]

Originally posted by concerned:
The Bible says that God created the earth in 6 days and on the seventh day he rested. The seventh was chosen to be the Sabbath Day, and when the calendar was created Sunday was the seventh day and so our Sabbath Day.
Sunday is the first day on my calandar...
I guess the Jews got that one right!

http://www.everythingjewish.com/Shabbat/Shabbat_Origins.htm

[Choco-chick]

Originally posted by Californee Girl:
Cat - Yes it is.

Concerned - thats a theory Id like to look into. Do you happen to have a reference?

OakhurstLeaf - Yes, youre partially right.

Choco - Thats the belief that I always held as well, but this book that I just read says that that is the biggest deception of them all. Puts quite a spin on things, doesnt it?

What book are you reading? Whatever it is, unless of course it's the Bible, I still feel the most important thing is the personal relationship between God and myself or God and you, God and ?. And with all the evil going on in the world today I think worshiping on the wrong day is, maybe, a minor issue.

[John @ 3300ft.]

I think one God day is a few billion years.

[Californee Girl]

Im reading a series of books put out by Amazing Facts. They put a lot of emphasis on the Sabbath Commandment. Its really left my head spinning. You are right though, Choco. It really does come down to each persons direct relationship with God.

The metaphoric days/years has me all confused too. In some places a day is a day, but in others a day is a year. I need to read up some more on who deciphers whats literal and whats not before I make up my own mind about it.

[Mysteefied]

gotta say I'm with Choco-chick on this one.

[Californee Girl]

What about forms of worship? Is the Sabbath suppost to be a day of total rest and fellowship, or just a couple hours in church?? Of course a faithful person should spend as much time in worship as possible, but what sets your day of worship apart from the rest of the week? What keeps it holy?

[Choco-chick]

I think the Sabbath can be whatever day you decide. Not only on the day you go to church. For me, Sunday is the day I go to Sunday school, then worship and then my husband and I go over to my parents and spend the day with them, we do a little laundry, but for the most part we spend together, watching movies, talking (some about church and what the Pastor said) and have dinner together. At the end of the day I am full with the love of God and family and it is a nice way to start the week. It is a peaceful and happy feeling.
There are times where we go out to the movies or shopping, but I do not conduct any business or go out with friends unless it is special circumstances, like someone in the hospital or a one time thing like a concert or something.
I think the Sabbath should be a day you connect with God and those you care about.
(Too mushy?) LOL

[Dodgergirl]

The Bible tells us to "pray without ceasing", in my world without ceasing would be every day, not just one. That, IMHO, is what is wrong with modern religion. People who are religious one day a week. The rest of the week they are asses. That is one of the biggest reasons Christians have such a bad reputation. Either live it or don't, but ya gotta do it Every Day. It's gotta be apart of your inner self, part of who you are. And yes, you can still go out & have fun, just don't be a flippin hypocrite about it. If I were perfect, I sure as heck wouldn't need a Saviour. Good thing he's around to clean up my messes. And I've made a lot of them.
And while I'm on a rant, What is up with the churches up here? Many are not having Christmas service on Christmas Day because it falls on a Sunday. Huh?
My particular church, (the one I have been affiliated with up here) appears to be having a Eve of Christmas Eve Service. (Friday night) Huh? Huh?
Are we that busy that we cannot take a few minutes to celebrate what the "holiday" represents? Yes, I know the calendars are off, I know it's rooted in paganism......But, in todays age, Christmas is still the representative day of Jesus' birth.

[Californee Girl]

Choco, your post wasnt too mushy at all! It left me feeling all warm and fuzzy inside. Thank you.

[beautiful_mess38]

Originally posted by oakhurstleaf:
Weren't the days (as in their names like Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, etc) of the week and even 9 months of the calendar year created by Pagans?

So maybe it's unholy, unChristian, whatever to acknowledge "Sunday" by any other name than the Sabbath. Ridiculous maybe...but seems Orthodox Christians have a serious issue with Pagan customs and origins.

Alot of countries were on different calenders. Greeks, china, Europe. It was Ceaser and Pope Henry who made the calendar what it is today.

[Goldpacker]

The issue with the Sabbath does not even seem to be about what day you worship on. If you read the ten commandments the Sabbath emphasis is on rest not worship. Don't let people make you think that there are certain days on which you are not allowed to worship God, whether that day is Sunday or any other day. Consider the following verse:

Then he said to them, "The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. Mark 2:27

If the Sabbath was just about worship then the Sabbath would have been made for God. The Bible seems to indicate the opposite. The very definition of worship is: "The reverent love and devotion accorded a deity, an idol, or a sacred object.". In the case of the Sabbath it seems that God made it because he loved us. Jesus speaking about future events said:

20Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. 21For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again. Matthew 24:20-21

I believe Jesus was showing His compassion on us when He said these words. Would anybody think that the reason Jesus said we should pray that we won't have to flee on the Sabbath or in the winter is so that we can spend the winter worshipping Him?

I worship God every day of the week, go to church on Sunday and always rest on Saturday (the Sabbath). I look forward to it like a mini vacation. It guarantees that I will have time to connect with my wife, do my own "personal" study, and spend time in nature . With Church taking up over half my day on Sunday, followed by a busy work week, I really look forward to each Sabbath.

If you do chose to rest on the Sabbath don't do it because it's a "mark of the beast" test, rather rest on that day because it's your right to do so, a special gift.

In Exodus it even says that your animals should get a rest on the Sabbath.

8 "Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your manservant or maidservant, nor your animals, nor the alien within your gates. 11 For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy. Exodus 20 8-11

[Patagoniamaniac]

Originally posted by Californee Girl:
Im reading a series of books put out by Amazing Facts. They put a lot of emphasis on the Sabbath Commandment. Its really left my head spinning. You are right though, Choco. It really does come down to each persons direct relationship with God.

The metaphoric days/years has me all confused too. In some places a day is a day, but in others a day is a year. I need to read up some more on who deciphers whats literal and whats not before I make up my own mind about it.

I've seen that guy on tv..seventh day adventist right..they believe that Saturday is the sabbath day..

I'll stick to Sunday worship. I'm sure God doesnt mind..he knows I love and worship him everyday and he knows my heart!

[Californee Girl]

That really is the most important thing Pata.

Yes, Amazing Facts is SDA. But they are not the only religious group that believes in the Sabbath. They think that Sunday worship is directly breaking the fourth commandment.

[Patagoniamaniac]

ya..that guy is really intersting..THe sdA truly believe in the old testament..I believe when Jesus came to earth a lot of the old testament laws were changed. Thats why he was so angry at the pharisees many times..I have absolutley nothing against SDA. they are true believers..<><

[Californee Girl]

So you believe that the Commandments were nailed to the cross as well? Or maybe you just interpret the Commandments in a less literal manner?

[Patagoniamaniac]

no I absolutley believe in the ten commandments. I'm just thinking of a story in the bible when Jesus went to rescue a sheep that had fallen off a cliff..( need to look it up) and it was on the sabbath day. The pharisee's were furious that he performed any task on the sabbath day. and the time that the disciples were collecting food with Jesus on the sabbath day and he was condemned for it..I think Jesus was trying to say lighten up people..I'll try to look those stories up tonight to be more correct in my interpretaion..but you know what I mean...I dont think we will all go to hell if we go to church on sunday....I think It pleases God that we worship him anytime...

[Yosemite Joy]

I think that it all comes down to religion, and what a person chooses to believe. Whether or not you were raised a certain way (Jewish or Protestant/Mormon or SDA) or choose as an adult to join a church.

Of course the SDA are very particular about this aspect of their beliefs, hence the name.

If you in your heart or mind or whatever take to a certain religion no one can say it is wrong. It is like drinking water, second nature, your belief.

The Bible is interpreted so many different ways, you can easily see that by picking up a Watchtower and then going to Catholic mass.

Ok I have made no sense, but I did try to get my point across.

[Californee Girl]

Originally posted by Patagoniamaniac:
I dont think we will all go to hell if we go to church on sunday

I completely agree with you Pata. Its whats in a persons heart that determines where they end up, not their day of worship. However, if a person has been convicted in their heart to keep the Sabbath as the SDA do, then it would be a sin not to.

[Patagoniamaniac]

thats a good point. I'd be curious to ask a member what they feel about people who do worship on sunday's..I know the owners to the clothing outlet are adventist. She's a sweetheart and I know would be open to answer any questions I had.

[Yosemite Joy]

Originally posted by Californee Girl:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Patagoniamaniac:
I dont think we will all go to hell if we go to church on sunday

I completely agree with you Pata. Its whats in a persons heart that determines where they end up, not their day of worship. However, if a person has been convicted in their heart to keep the Sabbath as the SDA do, then it would be a sin not to. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Of course! I used to believe that a Priest could forgive me. I used to believe in purgatory and two types of sin. Just like a Mormon would not drink tea or beer, or smoke/inhale anything. People believe something wholly, especially if it is the way they were raised.

(Trust me there, I am a constantly recovering Catholic)

To ask about Sabbath as it pertains to different people (who are one way or another leaning towards a religion) is to ask any religious based question to a group of people. Have you ever listened to Mormons or Jehovah Witnesses when they come to your door? They are quite convincing, and that is because they fully and truly believe everything they are saying about their beliefs.

[Patagoniamaniac]

true...good point

[Californee Girl]

Pata, the people who own the clothing outlet are good friends of mine. They have played a huge part in my own beliefs, and would be awesome people to ask questions of. Ive sought their counsel many times. As far as Ive seen, a lot of SDA members have varying opinions on the matter. But they all agree that its not for us to judge and there will be saved people in every faith.

YJ, you do make a great point. My dads also a recovering Catholic. Thats why I was raised atheist. I dont personally trust any church that requires a person to forgive you. Thats not a job for a man, no matter how full of himself he is. On a side note, theres also a commandment stating that we are not to make images of Heaven or Earth and worship them *cough* saints *cough*

I have listened to every religious argument thats come to my door for many years now. They couldnt convince me, but it looks like someone finally got to me because I found something that I can really believe in. Now Im walking this line between wanting to convince everyone else and wanting to still be "me".

[Californee Girl]

Heh. Ive done my share of arguing with the people at my door. Eventually I started warning them that if they wanted to talk religion they were going to have to hear and respect my views as well. It always started out so nice .. http://oakhurstonline.com/icon/rolleyes2.gif

Im still new to all of this. I cant quote scripture like some people can. But I do know that theres something in there about no one ever being perfect. Its my personal belief that one of the Devils best tools is to convince someone that they are not worthy. I also know that I have personally used that excuse to keep myself distanced from the church and God.

Bull**** is an awesome show. I used to watch it religiously (pun intended). However, there have been a couple shows recently that were flat out wrong. The claimed things that I know as fact to be bs on the alt medicine show, and Ive been increasingly disillusioned ever since. Just goes to show you that no one ever has it 100% right.

<span class="ev_code_PURPLE">To readjust youve got to trust that all the fuss is just a minor thing - Anthony Kiedis</span>

[SheilaMae]

Originally posted by Patagoniamaniac:
but you know what I mean...I dont think we will all go to hell if we go to church on sunday....I think It pleases God that we worship him anytime...

Such a true and lovely thing, well-said Pata! http://oakhurstonline.com/icon/applause.gif I think of the disciples in the Garden with Jesus as He prayed before the crucifixion and how disappointed and upset He was that they slept. But He didn't banish or disown or discard them, did He? http://oakhurstonline.com/icon/happy.gif

John 13: 34, 35 *A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another as I have loved you, that you also love one another. By this will all know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.*

[Shameless]

I look at it this way, it doesn't matter what religion you are or how you worship your God. We're all going to the same place.
Some people may not pray, go to church or do any worshipping at all. As long as thier good people they will be in heaven right along with us who do worship.

[Goldpacker]

I'm interested on how such a strong emphasis on worship came to be tied onto the Sabbath commandment in the first place. We should worship God everyday! Look at the ten commandments and see if you can find an emphasis on worship in reference to the Sabbath comand. It seems to be more about rest to me.

[Californee Girl]

Youre right Goldpacker. The Commandment says to remember the Sabbath and keep it holy. I personally see that as a time to fellowship and recharge. A day to devote entirely to my relationship with God and my church family. Of course we are to worship everyday, but I also see taking that day of rest as a form of worship.

And how loosely we use the phrase "love one another". If you really sit down and think about it, thats not a very easy task. Will God still love me if I dont click with another person? Yes. But when do we start taking responsibility for ourselves and our actions?? When do we stand by our convictions and quit hiding behind the ole "New Covenant" cop out?? If salvation were that easy, then there would be no need for self discipline. We would all be perfect souls. Thats an awfully pretty picture, but I dont believe that its that simple. Does a child simply have to love their parents to be sucessful in their life? No, a child needs to learn the lessons given to them and grow. So if were all children of God, then shouldnt we be growing and learning like children?

Luke 6:46
"And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?"

Mathew: 7:21-23
"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father in heaven.
Many who say to me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?'
And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you who practice lawlessness!"

[beautiful_mess38]

At YLCC today it was Pastor Cody's 1 year anniv. of his daughters death. He did not preach today. Instead we had a guest. I cannot even say guest speaker, because she didn't speak much she sang. (the tissues were out)

To our surprise it was the gospel singer LInda Lanier. What a voice and what a wonderful woman. I ended up buying 2 of her cd's. It's not often that a song brings me to tears.

Anyway I mention this because she said something that stuck with me. She said "why does there have to be so many rules in worshipping God." hmmm thats the reason why I stopped attending Catholic churches. The rules.

[SheilaMae]

Originally posted by Shameless:
Some people may not pray, go to church or do any worshipping at all. As long as thier good people they will be in heaven right along with us who do worship.

Shameless - I'm not one to start an argument so please don't take this that way, K? I don't have any idea who you are, been reading your posts with one part of me thinking this might be an alias/alternate id for someone I would recognize under another screen name but even so...

Been thinking about your reply here since moments after it was posted so this isn't a snap response on my part. I can't see how your hopeful thought could possibly be on target. Simplicity of logic dictates I would think that if God reigns in Heaven for any of us to get there we must acknowledge Him here. In Romans 3 it talks of how it is absolutely impossible either by keeping the "law" (the fact that there is law is necessitated by the mere knowledge of sin/evil) or breaking it to be right with God. v23-24 "for ALL (emphasis mine) have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is Christ Jesus."

The idea that a good person goes because of their goodness would mean that Jesus' crucifixion and resurrection means nothing at all. My teenage daughter in her youthful logic and argumentative stage tried to tell me that after seeing the Chronicles of Narnia - that if He knew He would be raised from the dead after sacrificing His life - it was no real sacrifice, was it?? She's missing the point the He did have free will like all of us and knew what the Father said He'd do, believed it and acted on it in obedience and complete and utter faith. And I believe He did it for me, you and all the 'good' and not good among us...if only we believe.

[Yosemite Joy]

Yep. Too bad about all the non-Christian religions. All going to hell.

The reason people believe in the Bible is because of "faith" right? Faith that the Bible is "right" the "correct" version gets you a ticket to heaven.

Such conviction, etc. I really really hope that God is really Almighty and can allow some of the non-believing-in-Jesus (hello Rabbi!)/Bible pushing/Good people into Heaven.

This is why I am so messed up about religion and those who put theirs above all others. I can not choose just one. I want to know everything about all of them. I live in fear of the wrong decision, and quite frankly with all the different Christian based churches I have attended all over the country (and world by golly); Baptist, Catholic, Protestant, Methodist, Lutheran, etc, etc.. I can't relate. I have read the Bible, gone to studies, etc, etc, but can not relate. Maybe I should of been raised Jewish, or Buddist..

I refuse to believe I am doomed to Hell because I don't believe Jesus existed. I refuse to believe such absurdity. So all the "Good" people in all the world who aren't Christian are going to Hell. Doesn't make any sense, unless of course, you have utter and total Faith in it.

Which I don't.


Tsk, tsk.

[Patagoniamaniac]

Originally posted by SheilaMae:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Shameless:
Some people may not pray, go to church or do any worshipping at all. As long as thier good people they will be in heaven right along with us who do worship.

Shameless - I'm not one to start an argument so please don't take this that way, K? I don't have any idea who you are, been reading your posts with one part of me thinking this might be an alias/alternate id for someone I would recognize under another screen name but even so...

Been thinking about your reply here since moments after it was posted so this isn't a snap response on my part. I can't see how your hopeful thought could possibly be on target. Simplicity of logic dictates I would think that if God reigns in Heaven for any of us to get there we must acknowledge Him here. In Romans 3 it talks of how it is absolutely impossible either by keeping the "law" (the fact that there is law is necessitated by the mere knowledge of sin/evil) or breaking it to be right with God. v23-24 "for ALL (emphasis mine) have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is Christ Jesus."

The idea that a good person goes because of their goodness would mean that Jesus' crucifixion and resurrection means nothing at all. My teenage daughter in her youthful logic and argumentative stage tried to tell me that after seeing the Chronicles of Narnia - that if He knew He would be raised from the dead after sacrificing His life - it was no real sacrifice, was it?? She's missing the point the He did have free will like all of us and knew what the Father said He'd do, believed it and acted on it in obedience and complete and utter faith. And I believe He did it for me, you and all the 'good' and not good among us...if only we believe. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

And thats just how I believe..
well said girl.. http://oakhurstonline.com/icon/applause.gif

[beautiful_mess38]

Hmmmm, I'll have to put in my 2 cents here. My God, the God I worship wouldn't put people into hell or purgatory because they didn't worship Jesus or go to church. We're all Gods children. Arn't we. I would think that my Grandmother or Grandfather whom didn't step into church every Sunday (or whatever day) and didn't pray everyday are in heaven. As a matter of fact I know they are.

I would think athiest are in heaven too.
Then Jesus can say "see I am true".

It's kind of like saying "if your not babtised your not going to heaven" C'mon my God wouldn't do that.

I understand what your saying Sheila and respect it to.

[Californee Girl]

Sometimes I feel like Im talking to myself here. I dont believe anyone has said that someone of any faith is going to hell. I think everyone has agreed that there will be saved people of every walk of life, and its whats in a persons heart that determines their status with God. What I am talking about here is what makes a persons heart *good*. How willing to listen are we all really?

I think that every last living soul will have the opportunity to accept Jesus. And if a person continuously denies Jesus existance, then they wouldnt want into the Christian Heaven anyway. This works for all parties involved. But once a person accepts Jesus, whats expected then? Just love as many people as you can and carry on with a lifestyle that Jesus would not approve of? Where is that line between knowing better and living better?

Just as a side note, I also dont believe that the majority of the dead are in heaven right now. Should we start another thread for the State of the Dead Debate? http://oakhurstonline.com/icon/sneaky.gif

[Patagoniamaniac]

your so right Cali..I believe we think a lot alike..God has given us free choice to accept him or not..what is there to lose but in my opinion..eternal life...I look forward to being in heaven with mine and yours (meaning everyone) SAVIOR...I only know that when I accepted christ my eyes were opened ( like the song amazing grace)...and I FELT his presence when I was radically saved. I understand the peace that passes ALL understanding because I felt it the moment I accepted Jesus.. I have since then backslid..and I hate it..because I miss the feeling of JOY that I felt when I first became a believer....It's so hard to live in the world today and not be in it..to sometimes be considered a hypocrite because of my less than perfect lifestyle.. .. my relationship with Jesus is between him and I..and not for others to judge..like the the scripture says...about the speck of dust in your eye..( below).... My true friends know how I love Jesus and thats how I set my example..they have seen me before I was saved and the joy that comes after I commited to Jesus...many of my friends are now going through trails in their life but have found the peace in trusting in jesus...I hope that i could of been that glimmer of hope and example to them by leading them to christ. there is nothing to lose and EVERYTHING to gain...I love Jesus always will and I am thankful that he died on the cross for my shortcomings..I know I'm forgiven..and I look forward to spending eternity with him and all my brothers and sisters who are with him now...


found the scripture..
"Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? How can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye." (Matthew 7:3-5)

[Yosemite Joy]

Originally posted by beautiful_mess38:
Hmmmm, I'll have to put in my 2 cents here. My God, the God I worship wouldn't put people into hell or purgatory because they didn't worship Jesus or go to church. We're all Gods children. Arn't we. I would think that my Grandmother or Grandfather whom didn't step into church every Sunday (or whatever day) and didn't pray everyday are in heaven. As a matter of fact I know they are.

I would think athiest are in heaven too.
Then Jesus can say "see I am true".

It's kind of like saying "if your not babtised your not going to heaven" C'mon my God wouldn't do that.

I understand what your saying Sheila and respect it to.

I agree for the most part.

*Another story that is off topic a little, sorry.

A friend of mine's father was widowed a few years back. He got a mail order bride (yes, I am serious) who is filipina and very, verrrry, verrrrrrry, Catholic. She asked my friend (her daughter by marriage of course) after the birth of her first child when she planned on baptising her baby. My friend, a Christian, but not Catholic in any respect, replied that her church believes that it is a person's choice when they are older (or something to that effect) to choose what/when/where etc to be baptised. The filipina (very nice woman, meaning no harm whatsoever) started crying and praying outloud for the infant who was "doomed to Hell" (her words).

Ho hum. Anyway, I completely digress.

[BGW]

Help me out here SheilaMae!! Your July 8th post and July 10th post seem to contradict each other.

July 8th: Such a true and lovely thing, well-said Pata! I think of the disciples in the Garden with Jesus as He prayed before the crucifixion and how disappointed and upset He was that they slept. But He didn't banish or disown or discard them, did He?


July 10th: Been thinking about your reply here since moments after it was posted so this isn't a snap response on my part. I can't see how your hopeful thought could possibly be on target. Simplicity of logic dictates I would think that if God reigns in Heaven for any of us to get there we must acknowledge Him here. In Romans 3 it talks of how it is absolutely impossible either by keeping the "law" (the fact that there is law is necessitated by the mere knowledge of sin/evil) or breaking it to be right with God. v23-24 "for ALL (emphasis mine) have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is Christ Jesus."

The idea that a good person goes because of their goodness would mean that Jesus' crucifixion and resurrection means nothing at all.

What I am getting out of this is:

Worship/church = belief = heaven

True, one would have to believe in a Christian God to believe in heaven but I don't think where or how were worship is a part of the equation, just that we open our hearts to the love and faith of Him.

I also don't feel that the Christian God would forsake any person that lived their life based on the Golden Rule and not the entire Bible or whether they went to church on Sunday.

Plus untangle my confusion!!! http://oakhurstonline.com/icon/happy.gif

[Patagoniamaniac]

I'ts true the God I believe in is a loving god..but he can also be wrathful...

"He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him" (John 3:36). In this verse, the world is divided into two groups: those who are believing and those who are not believing on the Son. Those who believe have everlasting life, and those who don't believe shall not see life.
thats from the bible...In my belief, the word of God...

I was raised a catholic. I remeber being the only one in my family that didnt go to catacysm classes..I dont remeber much as a child, But one one thing I vividly remember is the feeling of isolation and not being good enough because I couldnt take communion I will never forget that. I'd be left sitiing there all by myself as a 6 year old...then we stopped going for a while..the preist came up to my dad and insisted that he pay tithes for all the days we missed..My dad, being the hard headed dutchmen he is, never went back..he is now a faithful episcopalian..

[Californee Girl]

No one here is judging you Pata. And boy do I understand mourning your inital joy! I was baptized only six months ago and already Im struggling with multiple backslides. Thats in part why I started this thread. There are so many smaller details to consider, and its not always as easy as, "Im saved, the end". Theres always a next step in Christian growth.

Baptism! Theres a good debate too! I had my daughter baptized for the sake of the in-laws and *just in case*. I had no clue what I was doing or why I did it, but I did. Now that Ive really looked into it, I think your friend is right. If baptism is supposed to be symbolic of us dying of self, emerging into the ground (water) and re-emerging as a new person ... a Christian, then that should be done at an age of responsibility. Jesus himself was what? 30?

[Patagoniamaniac]

www.jesus-is-lord.com (http://www.jesus-is-lord.com)

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How to Get
to Heaven
How does a person get to heaven?
If you ask most people this question, they will say something like, "If you do more good things than bad things, God will probably let you into heaven." The above thinking will reserve your place in hell. You need FAITH IN THE BLOOD OF JESUS. There are no good deeds that you can do on your own that will erase the sins that you have committed. Jesus SHED BLOOD for you sins. He came to save you from the GUILT of past sins and the POWER of sin over your life. You are about to read the most important information that you will ever read. It is called the gospel of Jesus Christ.

The word "gospel" means "message"*. The gospel is God's message to mankind. If you will yield to the gospel, you will be reconciled to God and you will escape eternal damnation in hell and the lake of fire. Besides all of this, you will have abudant life right now as you walk with the Creator of the universe--in spite of all the woes the world will throw at you. If you are full of doubts, ask Jesus to help you to understand and to be willing to be saved.

*many say the word gospel means, "good news" but in actuality it is only good news for those who receive it with singleness of heart. To others it is the stench of death...eternal death. Revelation 14:6-7 tells us the message of the everlasting gospel--"Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and WORSHIP HIM that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters." There is only one way to do this--through the blood of Jesus Christ. REPENT ye and BELIEVE the gospel!
The Bible says that nobody is good enough to get into heaven. Each one of us has broken God's commandments--not one person is excepted. You have personally lied and committed other sins.

For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God. (Romans 3:23)

[L]et God be true, but every man a liar...( Romans 3:4)


I don't care how much "good" stuff you do, you still can't go to heaven. You are dead in tresspasses and sins. Your good deeds do not commend you to God in any way. You've ignored Him chosing to live life the way YOU see fit.
But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away. (Isaiah 64:6)

According to the above verse, we still come up short even when we try to do good deeds BECAUSE we are not doing them under God's authority. We do them cause WE think they are good. We ignore what God says.

"But I never killed anybody and I'm not a dope addict!" You're still a spiritual crook. You have broken the GREATEST COMMANDMENT IN THE BIBLE and you are as guilty as a harlot, a whoremonger, a killer, a thief and a liar. What is the greatest commandment?

Matthew 22:36-38 Master, which is the great commandment in the law? Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with ALL thy heart, and with ALL thy soul, and with ALL thy mind. THIS is the first and great commandment.

It doesn't take much thinking to know that the unregenerate man has broken this commandment every day of his miserable life. Ungrateful, unthankful to the God that hath provided life to his carcass.

For those stuck on their "good" deeds like hellbound papists (who go about to establish their OWN righteousness instead of hearkening to the Bible,) if we could earn our way into heaven, Jesus died for nothing!

I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain. (Galatians 2:21)

God is Holy. We are sinful. By His very nature, God cannot have fellowship with us sinners. There is no amount of "good" that we can do to make up for our crimes against God. They must be punished. And the wages are DEATH. Somebody has to DIE. Oh, you'll die physically, sin requires that. But you've got a choice about dying spiritually...


We deserve the death penalty. This includes both physical death (the casket) and spiritual death (when the soul is separated from God and cast into hell).
[T]he wages of sin is death...(Romans 6:23)


God doesn't want to remain your enemy and He does not want you to go to hell.
As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die... (Ezekiel 33:11)

The Lord is...not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. (II Peter 3:9)


In spite of your wickedness and rebellion, God loved you enough to send His ONLY BEGOTTEN Son to die for your sins. The Bible says, "... thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people FROM their sins." (Matt 1:21). Jesus did not die so that you could keep sinning and go to heaven. He came to save you from the GUILT and the POWER of sin. Jesus DESTROYED the works of the devil on calvary (I John 3:8). When you are unsaved, sin hath dominion over you. Sin is your boss and you can't do anything BUT sin. You are under the wrath of a holy and just God. Murderers, thieves, fornicators, lovers of pleasure more than lovers of God, rebels, and all other spiritual lepers will not inherit the kingdom. The blood of Jesus is the propitiation for our sins. That means the blood took away the guilt of the sins we've committed AND it has ushered us into a Father child relationship with the Lord. Through the blood of Jesus, we are to serve sin no more.
Again, the Father sent His only begotten Son, Jesus who is God, to die in your place. Remember that the wages of sin is death--that is why He died, to pay YOUR wages. The Lord Jesus Christ was your substitutionary sacrifice. The world's greatest love story is summed up in the following verse--

For God so loved the world, that he gave his ONLY BEGOTTEN Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. (John 3:16)

Jesus said, "Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends." (John 15:13) How can you show more love than giving your very life for someone else's life? You can't. What is more amazing is that Jesus died for us WHEN WE WERE HIS ENEMIES! I mean vile, wicked, pitiful, wretched, unclean, unholy, ungodly, prideful, spiritually leperous.

Romans 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

...Christ died for the ungodly. (Romans 5:6)

The love of God for you was demonstrated on that cross 2,000 years ago! God ain't hateful, He is loving. He gave His Son for you even though you are dead in tresspasses and sins.

Ephesians 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
2:3 Among whom also we ALL had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are savedhttp://oakhurstonline.com/icon/wink3.gif
2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
2:7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.



Jesus Christ, the Son of God, came to this earth to (1) save you from the GUILT and POWER of your sins and (2) RECONCILE you unto God. Through faith in the blood of Jesus you will escape the wrath to come and joyfully look forward to heaven--and you'll live an overcoming life. God will be your Father instead of your enemy--but only through the blood of Jesus.
..the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. (I John 1:7)

For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. (Romans 6:23)


After His death, the Lord's body laid in the grave three days, but praise be to God, it did not remain there. On the third day Jesus arose from the dead and was seen by over 500 people (I Corin 15:6) before He went back to heaven.
Please remember that Jesus was not some victim or just a baby in a manger--He was and is the eternal God and Savior who came to earth and gave His own blood for your sins. After He accomplished this tremendous feat, He rose from the dead like He said He would:

"Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again..." (John 10:17-18)

...Christ died for our sins...and he was buried, and...he rose again the third day... (I Corinthians 15:3-4)


Are you ready to repent of your sins? To repent means to forsake your evil ways and listen to God. All your life you've been your own authority concerning what is right and what is wrong. You've made your own decisions while ignoring what the Lord says in His holy word, the Bible. You've served yourself and not God. To repent means that you turn to GOD AND THE BIBLE AS YOUR AUTHORITY. It means you can say, "Lord everything you say in the Bible is right. If my feelings contradict the Bible I AM WRONG. Lord I want to live under YOUR AUTHORITY, not my own."
And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to REPENT. (Acts 17:30)

...TURN TO GOD, AND DO WORKS MEET FOR REPENTANCE. (Acts 26:20)

Repentance ain't lip service. Are you prepared to live for the Lord? Jesus said this--

"And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple." (Luke 14:27)

Determine that you are sick of living under your own authority. You've lived the way YOU wanted to. You lived without regard for God's precepts. Understand in your mind that you've lived in sin and in the ways of death. Think it through. Determine that you want God to be your Father and not your enemy. Decide that you WANT the Lord and His ways. Satan ain't doing nothing but kicking your hind parts up and down the street. He will leave you destroyed. God will lift you up if you submit yourself to Him.

Friend, you have a choice to make,


keep on pursuing Satan and the fleeting pleasures of sin; or,
humble yourself under the mighty hand of God. Further the kingdom of God with power from above. In due time, He will lift you up to places you never experienced--much less knew they existed.

The Holy Bible is the word of God. It is the only way that we know about the Lord Jesus Christ. In the Bible, God testifies that Jesus Christ died for your sins and was buried; and that He rose from the dead on the third day. You must believe and confess this in order to be saved.
[I]f thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, THOU SHALT BE SAVED. (Romans 10:9)

Jesus waits with open arms for those that want life. The choice is yours. If you're sick of being alienated from God, if you're tired of what this wicked and perverse world has to offer, if you want Jesus Christ as Lord of your life, if you want to be reconciled unto your Creator, if you want to go to heaven, if you want to escape hell -- put your faith in the One who can do something about it! Do you believe that Jesus Christ died for you? Do you believe that He rose from the dead? Do you repent of your sins? Do you want to follow Jesus?
If so, REPENT and talk to the Lord in prayer in your own words right now. Don't put off making a decision for Jesus, tomorrow may be too late. Some people don't know how to pray. Praying is just talking to the Lord. If you want to be saved, repent and pray--you can say something like, "Dear Jesus, I know that I am a sinner and I want to be saved. I repent of my sins, every one. I don't want to do evil anymore, I want to do righteousness through the blood of Jesus. I'm asking you to please forgive me of my sins against you. I want a new life in the Lord Jesus Christ. I want to be everything that You created me to be. I believe that Jesus shed His blood and died for me so that I could be saved from my sins. I believe that He rose from the dead on the third day. I want to be your child. Thank you for being merciful to me, a sinner. Thank you Lord Jesus for saving my soul from sin. Please fill me with your precious, Holy Spirit so that I can live a righteous, self-denying life for you. I'm giving you myself. Please show me what you want me to do. In Jesus' Name I pray, Amen."

If you have placed your faith in Jesus, praise God, you are a Christian. Now begins your new life of freedom and obedience to the Lord. Now you need to (1) start reading the Bible (Authorized King James Version of 1611--begin with the gospels) and (2) you need to get yourself into a Bible-believing church that uses the King James Bible so you can get baptized and discipled in the way of Christ.

Please see the section on the new life for more information. If you've gotten saved through this witness, please e-mail me at tracy@jesus-is-lord.com so that we can rejoice together.



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Warning!!!

Once you get saved, the devil will try to make sure that you encounter false doctrine. Your faith is tender and you will be prone to believe anything people tell you about the Bible (that's why you need to read it for yourself everyday). If you have any questions, please write me and I will direct you to the appropriate scriptures. Please heed these warnings:

1. Don't let anybody tell you that you have to "speak in tongues" to show that you are saved. These people take one or two passages out of context and make false doctrine out of them.

2. Don't let anyone tell you that water baptism saves you. If you are saved, you WILL get baptized out of obedience. Saved people are children of obedience (Heb 5:9). The gospel and baptism are separate--I Cor 1:17. You are baptized in order to outwardly identify with the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ and to symbolically show the washing away of sins. So if you are trusting in your baptism to save you, you are wrong. An unrepentant sinner will go down a dry sinner and come out a wet sinner.

1 Peter 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ.
3. Don't let anybody tell you that you're going to hell if you don't go to church on Saturday--Colossians 2:16, Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days.



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If you have not trusted Christ, I hope that you won't continue to reject His offer of life. You are in a dangerous position. John 3:36 says, "...he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him." You will not make it into heaven on your own "good merits" or by your own conception of Who and What God should be like. He always has His way--the choice is yours to accept or reject.

[Californee Girl]

AND!

Whenever I get to thinking about how some people wont make it to heaven, the parable of the seeds always comes to mind. Jesus says that the sower planted the seeds, and some of them fell by the wayside and the birds ate them. Some fell on stoney ground, where the earth was shallow. They sprang up fast but the sun quickly burned them because they no root. And some fell among the thorns and the thorns choked them. Then some seed fell on good soil, sprang up, and produced. Jesus explained this parable in Mark 4:13-20. It doesnt leave too much room for interpretation.

[Patagoniamaniac]

there ya go!... http://oakhurstonline.com/icon/happy.gif http://oakhurstonline.com/icon/applause.gif great scripture..

[Patagoniamaniac]

15 For this people's heart has become calloused;
they hardly hear with their ears,
and they have closed their eyes.
Otherwise they might see with their eyes,
hear with their ears,
understand with their hearts
and turn, and I would heal them.' [a]

16 But blessed are your eyes because they see, and your ears because they hear. 17 Truly I tell you, many prophets and righteous people longed to see what you see but did not see it, and to hear what you hear but did not hear it.

18 "Listen then to what the parable of the sower means: 19 When people hear the message about the kingdom and do not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in their hearts. This is the seed sown along the path. 20 The seed falling on rocky ground refers to people who hear the word and at once receive it with joy. 21 But since they have no root, they last only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, they quickly fall away. 22 The seed falling among the thorns refers to people who hear the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, making it unfruitful. 23 But the seed falling on good soil refers to people who hear the word and understand it. They produce a crop, yielding a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown."

time for me to get back on track...thanks cali..for this post...A divine appointment

[SheilaMae]

Originally posted by bgirlsworld:
Help me out here SheilaMae!! Your July 8th post and July 10th post seem to contradict each other.


True, one would have to believe in a Christian God to believe in heaven but I don't think where or how were worship is a part of the equation, just that we open our hearts to the love and faith of Him.

I also don't feel that the Christian God would forsake any person that lived their life based on the Golden Rule and not the entire Bible or whether they went to church on Sunday.

Plus untangle my confusion!!! http://oakhurstonline.com/icon/happy.gif

B...I said right out I didn't at all mean to be argumentative. And I certainly don't mean to contradict or confuse...truly. It's hard to contribute to this topic/thread without going to the Bible to find expression for what I think/believe to be true. And I don't won't to sound excessively 'church-y' and be dismissed by some because they'll see my thoughts/beliefs as those of some little brain-washed robot. I just an hour ago got called on the carpet by a dearly loved and respected elder woman because I've not been appropriately attending church, in fact. I was off-topic I guess in addressing Shameless' thought that all who are good people will go to Heaven. I don't think it matters what day of the week or how often we go to church, or what, if any, church we go to. Though I do heartily believe it makes us stronger to be in fellowship with others who share our faith.

July 8th - I believe that though the disciples in the garden disappointed and upset the Lord, still He knew them...knew their hearts. He chose them. And He is merciful and loving and forgives. Not even their sleeping 'on the job' so to speak would cause them to be disowned and abandoned.

July 10th - I don't see contradiction. Basically, all my post of earlier today says is that there is NONE good - every good thing we do or try to do falls short of what God intended for us all to dwell in Heaven and yet, He loved/loves us and provided through Jesus' sacrifice (and I don't know of any other way that promises it does) for us to be/go/live there anyway.

I don't claim to be anyone who gets to decide for anyone else. I only meant to point out what I thought said it clearly with no room for mis-interpretation. My hope, personally,is for the Heaven God created and dwells in and will rule from - His version, not mine or anyone else's re-created one.

[BGW]

I am not trying to be argumentative either. I am of a different religion with a different belief system and am only trying to understand what others believe; not try and change their beliefs or jump on their band wagon! Just a learning moment.

[Yosemite_Wolf]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by beautiful_mess38:
Hmmmm, I'll have to put in my 2 cents here. My God, the God I worship wouldn't put people into hell or purgatory because they didn't worship Jesus or go to church. We're all Gods children. Arn't we. I would think that my Grandmother or Grandfather whom didn't step into church every Sunday (or whatever day) and didn't pray everyday are in heaven. As a matter of fact I know they are.

im with Messy here.. and not just cos shes my friend. So some of you are saying cos I don't go to church of follow the christian way that I am bad? Its not the religion that you believe in .. but its how you live. I know soooo many "religious" ppl who are the most self serving biatches etc and yet i know so many ppl who don't go to church who are the nicest and most giving ppl on earth. Just cos I don't go to a organised church and pray every sunday doesnt mean I'm a bad person.
Ive studied history. Ive learned that Christianity came from Paganism. The pagan holidays, ie yuletide,was adapted by the christians to make christianity more acceptable. I don't look down at my friends for their religious beliefs.. i look at ppl at their honesty and ability to love and be kind. Next time an idiot cuts you off on 41.. ask them what church they go to. I was raised in the Lutheran church and grew to hate it.. all it did was kill my father at an early age. All my friends here.. and you know who you are.... messy, sheila, pata etc etc etc.. are good ppl and your religious beliefs do nothing to sway me from friendship with all of you.

The Celtic Warrior Princess has spoken.

[Dodgergirl]

Originally posted by Patagoniamaniac:
www.jesus-is-lord.com (http://www.jesus-is-lord.com)

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How to Get
to Heaven
How does a person get to heaven?
If you ask most people this question, they will say something like, "If you do more good things than bad things, God will probably let you into heaven." The above thinking will reserve your place in hell. You need FAITH IN THE BLOOD OF JESUS. There are no good deeds that you can do on your own that will erase the sins that you have committed. Jesus SHED BLOOD for you sins. He came to save you from the GUILT of past sins and the POWER of sin over your life. You are about to read the most important information that you will ever read. It is called the gospel of Jesus Christ.

The word "gospel" means "message"*. The gospel is God's message to mankind. If you will yield to the gospel, you will be reconciled to God and you will escape eternal damnation in hell and the lake of fire. Besides all of this, you will have abudant life right now as you walk with the Creator of the universe--in spite of all the woes the world will throw at you. If you are full of doubts, ask Jesus to help you to understand and to be willing to be saved.

*many say the word gospel means, "good news" but in actuality it is only good news for those who receive it with singleness of heart. To others it is the stench of death...eternal death. Revelation 14:6-7 tells us the message of the everlasting gospel--"Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and WORSHIP HIM that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters." There is only one way to do this--through the blood of Jesus Christ. REPENT ye and BELIEVE the gospel!
The Bible says that nobody is good enough to get into heaven. Each one of us has broken God's commandments--not one person is excepted. You have personally lied and committed other sins.

For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God. (Romans 3:23)

[L]et God be true, but every man a liar...( Romans 3:4)


I don't care how much "good" stuff you do, you still can't go to heaven. You are dead in tresspasses and sins. Your good deeds do not commend you to God in any way. You've ignored Him chosing to live life the way YOU see fit.
But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away. (Isaiah 64:6)

According to the above verse, we still come up short even when we try to do good deeds BECAUSE we are not doing them under God's authority. We do them cause WE think they are good. We ignore what God says.

"But I never killed anybody and I'm not a dope addict!" You're still a spiritual crook. You have broken the GREATEST COMMANDMENT IN THE BIBLE and you are as guilty as a harlot, a whoremonger, a killer, a thief and a liar. What is the greatest commandment?

Matthew 22:36-38 Master, which is the great commandment in the law? Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with ALL thy heart, and with ALL thy soul, and with ALL thy mind. THIS is the first and great commandment.

It doesn't take much thinking to know that the unregenerate man has broken this commandment every day of his miserable life. Ungrateful, unthankful to the God that hath provided life to his carcass.

For those stuck on their "good" deeds like hellbound papists (who go about to establish their OWN righteousness instead of hearkening to the Bible,) if we could earn our way into heaven, Jesus died for nothing!

I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain. (Galatians 2:21)

God is Holy. We are sinful. By His very nature, God cannot have fellowship with us sinners. There is no amount of "good" that we can do to make up for our crimes against God. They must be punished. And the wages are DEATH. Somebody has to DIE. Oh, you'll die physically, sin requires that. But you've got a choice about dying spiritually...


We deserve the death penalty. This includes both physical death (the casket) and spiritual death (when the soul is separated from God and cast into hell).
[T]he wages of sin is death...(Romans 6:23)


God doesn't want to remain your enemy and He does not want you to go to hell.
As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die... (Ezekiel 33:11)

The Lord is...not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. (II Peter 3:9)


In spite of your wickedness and rebellion, God loved you enough to send His ONLY BEGOTTEN Son to die for your sins. The Bible says, "... thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people FROM their sins." (Matt 1:21). Jesus did not die so that you could keep sinning and go to heaven. He came to save you from the GUILT and the POWER of sin. Jesus DESTROYED the works of the devil on calvary (I John 3:8). When you are unsaved, sin hath dominion over you. Sin is your boss and you can't do anything BUT sin. You are under the wrath of a holy and just God. Murderers, thieves, fornicators, lovers of pleasure more than lovers of God, rebels, and all other spiritual lepers will not inherit the kingdom. The blood of Jesus is the propitiation for our sins. That means the blood took away the guilt of the sins we've committed AND it has ushered us into a Father child relationship with the Lord. Through the blood of Jesus, we are to serve sin no more.
Again, the Father sent His only begotten Son, Jesus who is God, to die in your place. Remember that the wages of sin is death--that is why He died, to pay YOUR wages. The Lord Jesus Christ was your substitutionary sacrifice. The world's greatest love story is summed up in the following verse--

For God so loved the world, that he gave his ONLY BEGOTTEN Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. (John 3:16)

Jesus said, "Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends." (John 15:13) How can you show more love than giving your very life for someone else's life? You can't. What is more amazing is that Jesus died for us WHEN WE WERE HIS ENEMIES! I mean vile, wicked, pitiful, wretched, unclean, unholy, ungodly, prideful, spiritually leperous.

Romans 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

...Christ died for the ungodly. (Romans 5:6)

The love of God for you was demonstrated on that cross 2,000 years ago! God ain't hateful, He is loving. He gave His Son for you even though you are dead in tresspasses and sins.

Ephesians 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
2:3 Among whom also we ALL had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are savedhttp://oakhurstonline.com/icon/wink3.gif
2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
2:7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.



Jesus Christ, the Son of God, came to this earth to (1) save you from the GUILT and POWER of your sins and (2) RECONCILE you unto God. Through faith in the blood of Jesus you will escape the wrath to come and joyfully look forward to heaven--and you'll live an overcoming life. God will be your Father instead of your enemy--but only through the blood of Jesus.
..the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. (I John 1:7)

For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. (Romans 6:23)


After His death, the Lord's body laid in the grave three days, but praise be to God, it did not remain there. On the third day Jesus arose from the dead and was seen by over 500 people (I Corin 15:6) before He went back to heaven.
Please remember that Jesus was not some victim or just a baby in a manger--He was and is the eternal God and Savior who came to earth and gave His own blood for your sins. After He accomplished this tremendous feat, He rose from the dead like He said He would:

"Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again..." (John 10:17-18)

...Christ died for our sins...and he was buried, and...he rose again the third day... (I Corinthians 15:3-4)


Are you ready to repent of your sins? To repent means to forsake your evil ways and listen to God. All your life you've been your own authority concerning what is right and what is wrong. You've made your own decisions while ignoring what the Lord says in His holy word, the Bible. You've served yourself and not God. To repent means that you turn to GOD AND THE BIBLE AS YOUR AUTHORITY. It means you can say, "Lord everything you say in the Bible is right. If my feelings contradict the Bible I AM WRONG. Lord I want to live under YOUR AUTHORITY, not my own."
And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to REPENT. (Acts 17:30)

...TURN TO GOD, AND DO WORKS MEET FOR REPENTANCE. (Acts 26:20)

Repentance ain't lip service. Are you prepared to live for the Lord? Jesus said this--

"And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple." (Luke 14:27)

Determine that you are sick of living under your own authority. You've lived the way YOU wanted to. You lived without regard for God's precepts. Understand in your mind that you've lived in sin and in the ways of death. Think it through. Determine that you want God to be your Father and not your enemy. Decide that you WANT the Lord and His ways. Satan ain't doing nothing but kicking your hind parts up and down the street. He will leave you destroyed. God will lift you up if you submit yourself to Him.

Friend, you have a choice to make,


keep on pursuing Satan and the fleeting pleasures of sin; or,
humble yourself under the mighty hand of God. Further the kingdom of God with power from above. In due time, He will lift you up to places you never experienced--much less knew they existed.

The Holy Bible is the word of God. It is the only way that we know about the Lord Jesus Christ. In the Bible, God testifies that Jesus Christ died for your sins and was buried; and that He rose from the dead on the third day. You must believe and confess this in order to be saved.
[I]f thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, THOU SHALT BE SAVED. (Romans 10:9)

Jesus waits with open arms for those that want life. The choice is yours. If you're sick of being alienated from God, if you're tired of what this wicked and perverse world has to offer, if you want Jesus Christ as Lord of your life, if you want to be reconciled unto your Creator, if you want to go to heaven, if you want to escape hell -- put your faith in the One who can do something about it! Do you believe that Jesus Christ died for you? Do you believe that He rose from the dead? Do you repent of your sins? Do you want to follow Jesus?
If so, REPENT and talk to the Lord in prayer in your own words right now. Don't put off making a decision for Jesus, tomorrow may be too late. Some people don't know how to pray. Praying is just talking to the Lord. If you want to be saved, repent and pray--you can say something like, "Dear Jesus, I know that I am a sinner and I want to be saved. I repent of my sins, every one. I don't want to do evil anymore, I want to do righteousness through the blood of Jesus. I'm asking you to please forgive me of my sins against you. I want a new life in the Lord Jesus Christ. I want to be everything that You created me to be. I believe that Jesus shed His blood and died for me so that I could be saved from my sins. I believe that He rose from the dead on the third day. I want to be your child. Thank you for being merciful to me, a sinner. Thank you Lord Jesus for saving my soul from sin. Please fill me with your precious, Holy Spirit so that I can live a righteous, self-denying life for you. I'm giving you myself. Please show me what you want me to do. In Jesus' Name I pray, Amen."

If you have placed your faith in Jesus, praise God, you are a Christian. Now begins your new life of freedom and obedience to the Lord. Now you need to (1) start reading the Bible (Authorized King James Version of 1611--begin with the gospels) and (2) you need to get yourself into a Bible-believing church that uses the King James Bible so you can get baptized and discipled in the way of Christ.

Please see the section on the new life for more information. If you've gotten saved through this witness, please e-mail me at tracy@jesus-is-lord.com so that we can rejoice together.



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Warning!!!

Once you get saved, the devil will try to make sure that you encounter false doctrine. Your faith is tender and you will be prone to believe anything people tell you about the Bible (that's why you need to read it for yourself everyday). If you have any questions, please write me and I will direct you to the appropriate scriptures. Please heed these warnings:

1. Don't let anybody tell you that you have to "speak in tongues" to show that you are saved. These people take one or two passages out of context and make false doctrine out of them.

2. Don't let anyone tell you that water baptism saves you. If you are saved, you WILL get baptized out of obedience. Saved people are children of obedience (Heb 5:9). The gospel and baptism are separate--I Cor 1:17. You are baptized in order to outwardly identify with the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ and to symbolically show the washing away of sins. So if you are trusting in your baptism to save you, you are wrong. An unrepentant sinner will go down a dry sinner and come out a wet sinner.

1 Peter 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ.
3. Don't let anybody tell you that you're going to hell if you don't go to church on Saturday--Colossians 2:16, Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days.



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If you have not trusted Christ, I hope that you won't continue to reject His offer of life. You are in a dangerous position. John 3:36 says, "...he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him." You will not make it into heaven on your own "good merits" or by your own conception of Who and What God should be like. He always has His way--the choice is yours to accept or reject.



Yup, this is what I've been taught.

I know I'm a screw up, but if I was perfect, why would I need God? It's very humbling to think you've got everything & then realize without faith, you don't have anything... (my personal opinion on my life) So don't attempt to tear that one up, OK?

[Yosemite_Wolf]

i won't tear it up. i respect ppl for all and any beliefs.
We all pray in our own ways... I just dont have to go to church to pray. Im very private in my thoughts. God is present in all cultures.. he/she has many forms.. .whether you believe in god, allah, shiva or thor.. we can be good or bad. look at the behaviour.. not at the action in church. oh and Dodge.. in my last post where I mentioned friends ...... you are in that list. http://oakhurstonline.com/icon/happy.gif

[Dodgergirl]

hey, I don't go to church up here lately either. i was going but the political BS chased me away. and I used to teach Bible study in LA....

[Yosemite_Wolf]

But we are all friends.. does our manner of preying.. oops praying matter? yes.. politics in religion is a no no.. ... or is that religion in politics.? All I know.. is I love my friends for who they are, not who or what they believe in.

[Californee Girl]

Originally posted by Dodgergirl:
hey, I don't go to church up here lately either. i was going but the political BS chased me away. and I used to teach Bible study in LA....

Tell me about it! I joined this church about a year ago. I was raised completely atheist, so this was a pretty big deal for me. I was high on my new beliefs, and now suddenly Im feeling 100% run-down by the politics involved. Since when do faith and business go so well together?? Isnt there something about religious liberty and separation of state and church? Shouldnt that extend into the church as well?? Separation of church and church leadership? LoL This is me being very fed up with church politics but still trying very hard to hold onto the beliefs that brought me there in the first place.

[Yosemite_Wolf]

Cali. your belief is in your heart. don't depend on the capitalist church. Believe in what is in your heart. thats religion... your heart

[SheilaMae]

Originally posted by Dodgergirl:
I know I'm a screw up, but if I was perfect, why would I need God? It's very humbling to think you've got everything & then realize without faith, you don't have anything... (my personal opinion on my life) So don't attempt to tear that one up, OK?

You know, Dodge - the longer I know you the smarter I think you are. There aren't many people on one can say that about in life.

[RodWilson]

:devil:Wow, the devil doth make thee stray! Love of the Lord thy God compels thee to observe the most repeated and longest & most detailed commandment He gave us! Accepting Christ as Lord and Saviour isn't enough to get you into Heaven! You MUST do the will His Father!(Matt. 7:21) Of all that God has said about His Holy Sabbath, here's a tidbit most don't know: If thou turn away thy foot from the Sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on My Holy Day; and call the Sabbath a delight, the Holy of the LORD, honourable; and shalt honour Me, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words: Then shalt thou delight thyself in the LORD; and I will cause thee to ride upon the high places of the earth, and feed thee: For the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it!

[Edana]

I disagree.

First off, youre making yourself a judge in assuming that someone has strayed or is devil led. I believe theres a commandment against that.

With all due respect to Sabbatarians, to bind yourself to legalism distracts from the truth which is in Christ full atonement. One could even make the assumption that such legalism is of the devil because it puts the focus on your actions and not firmly on Christ where it belongs. It breeds elitism, gives the judaizer a false sense of superiority. But thats just my personal opinion.

On another note, Ive noticed that a lot of these publications going around do not have the church affiliation clearly stated. That should be a huge indicator to those who are curious as to what type of establishment is printing them.

And while Im on it! There is also a commandment to obey our leaders, which you fail to do by breaking federal law to grow mm. I support your cause 100%, but if youre going to stick to every jot & tittle, you have to actually live by every jot & tittle. This is why Im so happy to now be living under the New Covenant.