Spank you kids

[LindaBo]

Do you belive in spanking your kids?

[munstahgirl]

Sure do...kids need to respect parents, not all kids need physical punishment, but I would say that it's an effective deterrent in the ones that do get spanked...I have 3 kids that have all been spanked as needed.

[Maugrim]

Though not a parent the answer is yes, with a qualification.

I can count on one hand the number of times I was spanked. And it was never the pain of a spanking that stayed with me it was the OMFG MOM/DAD spanked me!!! I must have really screwed up!!!

If you (the general you) are raising your kid right and you're spanking you kid on alarmingly frequent basis...then you need to get help after awhile spankings/beatings just lose meaning to a kid and do nothing to correct the problem. You either enjoy it or do not know how to discipline your kid and get results.

Cleis

[jakobscalpel]

Emphatically no.

Originally posted by munstahgirl:
Sure do...kids need to respect parents

I didn't know respect could be forced. How interesting. Are you sure fear isn't the word you are looking for. Best of luck to you.

[CatdaBrat]

It depends on the kid, the kid's age, the situation and making sure you don't spank as a result of having lost your temper.

I raised two sons. I remember spanking one but don't have any recollection of having had to do that with the other one. They had different behaviors.

When a little kid is doing something really dangerous, and they are too young to sit them down and "explain" why they shouldn't be doing it, I believe you need to move in and act fast.

At first (sometimes) you can merely just swoop them up, say "NO!" in a stern fashion and plop them down somewhere safe and where they get distracted from whatever unacceptable activity they were engaged in.

But at other times, they can't be swayed from their quest and will try and try again to explore or play in harm's way (even if you try to childproof your home, they can always think of something).

Sitting down and explaining to little Johnny or Suzie WHY they shouldn't do whatever it is that's dangerous will just be sailing over their heads as nonsense and babble. Very young kids are not capable of seeing adult logic and reasoning.

They can, however, understand that Mommy will give them a good swat on the rump if they try and stick a metal knitting needle in the electrical outlet! They don't need a scientific explanation or some singy-songy, "Mommy will not be pleased if you do that, honey!"

I don't believe in using spankings in order to vent frustration and anger or to emotionally or physically abuse a child. But if it came to a choice between trying to "explain" and "reason" why Johnny or Suzie shouldn't do something that endangers their life, I would not hesitate to give a swat.

I believe there is much more risk in using the "big adult trying to explain safety precautions to a child young enough to think poop and play-dough are both fun" method.

[beautiful_mess38]

I do spank, but then I feel bad the rest of the day. I let my kids know it too. Then we all feel bad.

[Lacey]

Discipline is what is necessary! All youngsters need to be taught about the dangers in life and right from wrong. They are not born with this knowledge. If a swat on the butt is what it takes to get that message across, then that is what should be done.

It would be great if we were taught parenting skills before we ever become parents, though. Wouldn't it be great if one of the mandatory classes in high school was Parenting Skills? At least young parents would have been exposed to parenting methods that way. All I had was Dr. Spock...and we all know what good advice that was! hahaha

[tocools]

Lacey I think we were in parenting school when were growing up and seeing what our parents did and did not do as we got older we must decide how we will raise our kids. Life is all about choices and how we use them. I spanked and was spanked. Spanking a kid is different then beating a kid if you can't tell the differents then you should not spank

[Newcomer]

There is a difference between Beating your kid and disciplining them with a good spank. I lived through many good spanks that tought me some good lessons.

Amd my opinion on spanking others children, I don't have one. You would have to ask Hugh Hefner that one LOL http://oakhurstonline.com/icon/laugh.gif

[LindaBo]

Originally posted by Newcomer:
There is a difference between Beating your kid and disciplining them with a good spank. I lived through many good spanks that tought me some good lessons.

Amd my opinion on spanking others children, I don't have one. You would have to ask Hugh Hefner that one LOL http://oakhurstonline.com/icon/laugh.gif .........you are right, i feel the same way. some people can not see the difference between them, i do feel also that a good spanking is need at times, i feel now days it must be private or you could land in jail....So i can see why it is out lawed, because other people have gone over board and kids have ended up dead.....kids are different no days any way...even a good spanking doesn,t faze them any more, it use to ////scare me to being good\\\\when my Mom would say-JUST WAIT UNTIL YOUR DAD GETS HOME, YOU ARE GOING TO GET A SPANKING belive me that keeped me in line* most of the time LOlolol http://oakhurstonline.com/icon/evil.gif i spanked this boy in the picture and i chased him around with a yelloy race car track to get him, and you can see he still LOVES Hes MOM http://oakhurstonline.com/icon/eusa_dance.gif

[candyappleisland]

I am so *&^%$#%^(*(& **&^^%%$ disgusted and shocked by the amount of human ignorance and disregard for basic respect for people, to a family member!

Yes spanking differs from beatings like a cut that needs stitches differs from a leg amputation.

What is wrong with you people?

Someone does something wrong and you hit them? Yeah that teaches a whole *&@#%$&(*) lot. Gee, I better not get caught. Gee I better cower and learn to do what someone bigger than me tells me to do or they'll hurt me and humiliate me. That really teaches something grand!

Any time you hit someone you're teaching them to hit. There is no in between on this. There is no justification. It is only bad parenting. It is lousy, lazy, ignorant, malicious human behavior.

People who hit their kids should be required to take lashings for traffic tickets. Then tell me what the mother *&(&%&^% **&*&^%%%$ &&^%$#@# you learned.

[High_Roller]

The kind of kid I was, an occasional swat was the only thing that deterred me from doing things that were dangerous. I would probably be dead by now if my mom didn't reluctantly resort to that. She tried everything else to no avail.

I am 32 now, almost 33, and have never swatted or struck anyone, not even a fly or spider. I don't think it had any adverse affect on me, but I'm sure if I had been beaten or humiliated (abuse), I would have been psychologically damaged.

[Mysteefied]

wow Cacandyappleisland I guess we should be giving you parent of the century award. I think It's shameful to call all of us bad parents and ignorant becuase we may have swatted our child on the bottom at one time. You have no idea what great kids I have and I did swat each of them at one time or another when they were a little younger and it did deter them from some extreme behavior at the time and it never happened again and I am an incredible parent.
I, like most of us here, have never HIT my child.

Jumping off my soapbox now.

[Kahlua Kid]

Coming from a home where there was physical abuse until age 7, and then from then on just an occasional swat from my mother (not to mention soap in the mouth for cursing), I think I turned out just fine!

I do not condone abusive discipline by any means. I would NEVER go to that level of discipline with anyone or any thing (including my pets.) I refuse to carry that cycle.

I don't have children, but do I occasionally tap my cat on the nose for "no" or tap my horse when they are endangering themselves or I? YES!

[monkey]

Ok, I'm probably asking for trouble here, but here goes... I don't have kids by choice, but I feel that there is a HUGE difference between a swat and a beating/spanking/hitting. When I was a kid and doing something dangerous or really bad, I would get a swat on the butt. It got my attention and I learned from them. I turned out ok, despite what some people think. http://oakhurstonline.com/icon/happy.gif Apparently it is not ok to swat a child but it is ok to unleash a torrent of swearing when there was a civil discussion going on. What does that teach a child?

[Newcomer]

Originally posted by candyappleisland:
I am so *&^%$#%^(*(& **&^^%%$ disgusted and shocked by the amount of human ignorance and disregard for basic respect for people, to a family member!

Yes spanking differs from beatings like a cut that needs stitches differs from a leg amputation.

What is wrong with you people?

Someone does something wrong and you hit them? Yeah that teaches a whole *&@#%$&(*) lot. Gee, I better not get caught. Gee I better cower and learn to do what someone bigger than me tells me to do or they'll hurt me and humiliate me. That really teaches something grand!

Any time you hit someone you're teaching them to hit. There is no in between on this. There is no justification. It is only bad parenting. It is lousy, lazy, ignorant, malicious human behavior.

People who hit their kids should be required to take lashings for traffic tickets. Then tell me what the mother *&(&%&^% **&*&^%%%$ &&^%$#@# you learned.


When I talk about spanking I mean a swat or two on the rump. I know that when I did something wrong my mom would send me to my room and make me wait for the swats a couple of hours. In that time you did a lot of thinking about what you did wrong. The wait for the spanking was far worse than the swats themselves. My spanks never lead to myself as an adult hitting anyone.

[beautiful_mess38]

Gosh, Candy you act like we're beating are kids.
A swat doesnt hurt, but it does get thier attention.

Get a grip hun.

[Patagoniamaniac]

I was spanked and I turned out ok..
yep I spank my kids..it's been a while..but I have and will spank them. I guess my 15 yr old is a little to old to spank..my 13 yr old has been spanked only once in her entire life...only because she is truly an angel!...no lie..never gives me any problem..and then there is my 9 year old who is a splitten image of myself..( karma) she's had her share of wacks..and will continue to if she keep continues acting the way i did and do..ha!

[Ironhorse]

Originally posted by beautiful_mess38:
Gosh, Candy you act like we're beating are kids.
A swat doesnt hurt, but it does get thier attention.

Get a grip hun.

http://oakhurstonline.com/icon/shocked.gif what she said!

[candyappleisland]

"I guess I turned out ok." You hear it over and over. No, spanking doesn’t create mass murders. But how did it shape your life’s view? What did it make you feel when it happened to you? Shame, anger, frustration, fear, loss of parental respect? These are great things to teach kids.

If you were to take yourself back to the moment you were being spanked, what was it you felt or thought about yourself or the person spanking. Now in the safety of adulthood you can shrug, alls well, and not think about it anymore because it doesn’t happen to you anymore.

Spankings are not beatings. Beatings are extreme; they give the recipient no choice but to be submissive. But to say spanking is ok because it is not that extreme is wrong. Spanking does not encourage love, trust, respect, understanding, confidence, or human generosity.

The argument that only physical punishment could have stopped you from doing something says that you could not listen or expect to be listened to. You existed in an environment that did not meet your needs.

They don't even feel it? It gets their attention? If you can’t get a small person who loves you with all their heart’s attention, what have you been doing to lose it?

Why don't you have someone do it to you and catalogue what you feel. If it doesn’t cause pain it’s ok to attack someone. To raise your arm against someone. It’s violence no matter how you slice it. Ends justify means is the road to hell. Isn’t this stuff in the bible?

No one is the worst parent ever, or the best. I'm saying that justifying physical violence is a stupid, idiotic tendency born out of misconception, habit, and lack of true communication.

To say that someone who doesn’t spank is a perfect parent is just to make yourself feel better that you do. It excuses you from thinking about your actions.

This is important. People need to start taking responsibility for their actions and grow up.

[beautiful_mess38]

What book or magazine did you get that from?

When I was in elem. school it was legal for the teachers to spank kids. I remember getting spanked once in grade K. in front of everyone.
In the 1st grade I was slapped on the hand with a ruler by a nun. (catholic school) again that was the only and last time.

How did I feel; very embarassed. But, it taught me my lesson.

I do not spank my kids in public or in front of anyone.

A good friend of mine has alot of degrees in "child developement" (you know who you are) hehehe
and guess what, she spanked her kids.

Here you are Candy using $&^%* profanity on us because we spanke our kids. Which I find kind of hypocritcal.
Sometimes words are just as bad as swats.

[Ironhorse]

I find the message from Candy referring to the bible and then her use of profanity to be at odds with each other. Amazing how some people can fall back on the bible when it suits their needs. And if you want to talk abuse, well isn't use of profanity and putting people down by trying to make them feel ashamed another form of abuse. Verbal abuse can be every bit as damaging as physical abuse. OH MY, I think I feel a need to see my therapist! http://oakhurstonline.com/icon/wink3.gif

[Kim]

How did I feel when I was spanked? Usually pretty ashamed of myself for doing what I did to get there.
My parents did nothing to lose my attention, and I definitely did not lose respect for them. On the contrary, the day my mother said that she would not give the school permission to spank me but would take care of me herself, I gained respect, because that showed me she loved me enough to take care of disciplining me and my sisters herself instead of trusting the judgment of strangers.
Spankings in a rage are inappropriate. Spankings done in privacy, with prior warning that they will be a consequence of an action, and done with a bare hand, work when nothing else will.

[monkey]

I remember when I was very young doing something bad at school and I had to go stand outside with my chin up as high as I could hold it up against a wall. I don't remember if I had to do it for 5 minutes or for an hour, but I would have much rather gotten a swat to the behind and gotten it over with.
Yes, swats did get my attention, made me feel shame, anger, frustration, etc. I didn't like those feelings so I learned not to put my hand on the hot stove. Mission accomplished. I would hope that every parent does the best they can to raise a healthy, happy child/adult.

[motherof4]

Candy do you have kids? How old are they? Are they good kids.

I read a poll once that talked about spanking and it poll people in jail out of jail different life styles and belive it or not most that where not Spank where in jail or homeless.( Now I say most not all) But yes so kids that where spank as kids are in jail this very day. You want to talk Bible well I belive that it says in the good book Spare the rod spoil the child. Yes some kids need a spank some a disappointed parent is enough for them. I got 4 kids and yes I spank them when needed. My son needs no spanking If I show disappointment he crys and we talk about it. All my kids are good kids and every one tells me so. Yes I am bragging but that is my God given right. I am not a bad Parent. I care for my kids. I was spank up to the age of 12. That's when they started saying spanking was bad and took it out of schools. My brother need that spanking but when my mom stopped he got worse now where is he Jail. Where is he kid being raised by a grandmother. It saddens me to no end. I am sry you feel the way you. But we are all different. That is what the world is made of. And by the way please candy never leave the USA cause the punishment in other country well lets say you could not handle it. We are the most lazed country in the world. And as you can see crime is way on the rise cause no one will take charge and really make people take what they deserve. Just think in the old days they would chop your hand of for stealing. No days it is please don't do that and you are on your way....... Stepping off my soap box before I write a book....

[Kahlua Kid]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by candyappleisland:

"I guess I turned out ok." -
I don't guess, I know so.

But how did it shape your life’s view?
Doesn't seem demented in one way. I can separate the physical abuse created by one parent, from the spankings that occured from another actually. The one who spanked did it with warning and with love. (I think the one who abused thought they did so with love too, but overdid it and was Vietnam influenced.)

What did it make you feel when it happened to you?
Like I should have listened in the first place to my parent who warned me...

Shame...
maybe, but if I hadn't disobeyed, I wouldn't have felt shame.

anger... nope

frustration... no, I knew why I was being spanked

fear...no, never feared my mother

loss of parental respect?
Absolutely not - I respected my mother for it and she didn't spank without good reason. Usually she would talk to us and explain WHY we shouldn't do something (you'll get hurt, you'll get kidnapped, you'll get killed, you'll go to jail, etc...) But if you continued to do something stupid... WHACK! http://oakhurstonline.com/icon/happy.gif

{QUOTE]

[jakobscalpel]

So, what the ProSpankers are saying is this: There are times when physical action is the ONLY way to teach a child to behave properly. If there was a non-physical alternative then you would take it, correct? Otherwise you would be forced to conclude that acting physically when there is a non-physical alternative means one of the following:

A) You like to hit your kids
B) You are too lazy to properly follow the non-physical alternatives

I'm sure none of you fit these two options so...

..so sometimes there is just no other way, gosh durn it, but to smack (not hit or beat) my kid on the butt. Of course, you have to pass it through the age filter first... As several have mentioned, it just isn't age appropriate to hit a kid who is 15, or 12, or was it 10? Wow, no consensus there, but I'm sure there is a good reason to stop at a particular age nonetheless. Otherwise we might look bad, hitting a kid who might be able to physically defend themselves. Sorry, I didn't mean that; I mean, we might look bad hitting a kid who could honestly tell us how they feel about being hit. Whoops, dang it, I meant this. You don't hit kids past a certain age because it is no longer necessary for them.

Cause, in those situations where young kids MUST be disciplined with physical contact for their own good, they actually need it. To not hit in that situation is simply bad parenting because, as we've concluded, there is just no alternative to hitting in those situations (unless you like it, or are lazy, but we've dismissed those possibilities). Why young kids require a smack to force home the lesson is not quite clear, but obviously still necessary. Perhaps their inability to have any clear idea of the future and long term consequences of their actions is the reason. Obviously a smack, which causes short term pain and anxiety, is the proper way to ensure a long term perspective. Hmmm, that doesn't sound too persuasive... Maybe their rebellious instincts towards parents and others outside their peer group is the reason they need a smack in those situations that absolutely REQUIRE one. After all, a parent must be respected and obeyed at all times and rebelliousness just doesn't work with that requirement. So a physical blow, which makes them want to withdraw from the hitter, is the best way to bring them closer to you in order to minimize rebelliousness. Makes sense, especially when combined with teaching them not to strike others. Well, maybe it doesn't make sense. But it doesn't really matter. Perhaps it is just because we were spanked by our parents and we turned out OK that makes us sure that there are certain times when there is just no single other possible way we could have taught that child.

[jakobscalpel]

A quick, funny story about spanking. My best friend used to get hit with a long wooden stick when we were growing up. If I spent the night at his house and we got in trouble, I'd stand there and watch him get hit five-eight times in the butt with this stick. He'd be crying before it started because he knew what was coming. It was very hard for me to stand there and watch this happen to my friend, when I was never spanked. One day when we were 8 we sprayed his sister with mud and water from the hose. She cried and out came the stick. After his dad finished with him he came towards me and told me to lean over. I started crying and said no. He tried to make me. I grabbed the stick out of his hand and backed away. Everytime he got close I tried to hit him. He didn't get the stick from me and my mom arrived. They had a chat. That situation never happened again. What a coward that man was (and is).

[Yosemite Joy]

Hey Mother of 4, don't move to the UK and spank your kids. Oh but wait, the rest of the world spanks their kids right?

I have spanked my kids before. Out of ignorance, out of fear. Fear for their safety. Once I spanked my daughter after she took off out the door of a store (which was ultimitley my own fault of course) and into the parking lot. I was terrifyied and full of adrenaline, by the time I realised what I was doing, I had spanked her. In public no less. She was about three years old.

I am not going to get into a huge debate with you guys. People will raise their kids however they want to. Spanking is not the worst thing in the world, I am not just saying so because I have done it. I am saying this because there are so many other more important issues surrounding parenting these days. It seems to me a huge demographic of people in this area (Madera county/central valley) have drug issues to deal with, and with drugs and kids comes real abuse/neglect etc. On the flipside of that, you have people so materialistic and with such little value of money/morals etc, that their kids are walking advertisments for The Gap and play Gameboys instead of doing homework.

I find it curious that people who do not have children have an opinion on spanking children.

It wasn't until I picked up a book and read it (several more since) that I came to the conclusions I have about spanking, and disciplining kids. My kids aren't perfect, no ones are. You may think back with rose colored glasses about how great Johnny was when he was three. But that is what is great about that rosy colour. Everyone has bad/off days. Sometimes I am grumpy as hell and don't feel like listening. It happens. It happens with my kids too. You can't force someone to be obediant everyminute of everyday. When was the last time you were a perfect adult?

[Yosemite Sam]

I find it curious that people who do not have children have an opinion on spanking children.

I find it curious how people who have never run a country can have an opinion on it also http://oakhurstonline.com/icon/laugh.gif

[Newcomer]

http://oakhurstonline.com/icon/rolleyes2.gif

[High_Roller]

So, what the ProSpankers are saying is this: There are times when physical action is the ONLY way to teach a child to behave properly.


I look upon the physical action more as a way to teach a child NOT to behave dangerously or inapropriately. A good parent will have already taken time to teach them what good behavior is. The thing is with some kids, even though they KNOW they are doing something "bad," they will go ahead and do it anyway, for various reasons, some simple and some complex. I believe the spanking is more of a consequence of their actions.

Of course there are alternatives to spanking. That's why reasonable parents usually use it as a last resort. But if those alternatives have no effect, and the child continues to do things that may endanger their health or life, swats can bring a swift cure.

And if spankings bring on feelings that are less than warm and fuzzy, well, that's the whole point. Kids aren't supposed to like it or feel good about it.

Granted, the feelings instilled upon receiving a swat should not be mortal fear and psychological trauma or lead to 10 years of group therapy, but those extremes can be easily avoided in a loving family.

I also believe that the main reason older children do not normally get spanked is because they can be reasoned with. Their minds are mature enough to understand most of your explanations.

It is an emotional issue, to be sure, and like YJ said, people will raise their kids however they want to. I think Candyappleisland was just very frustrated and upset, but the topic can still be a very valuable and interesting one here.
I, for one, appreciate the chance to see different points of view (yet I agree that sometimes we all need to step back and take a deep breath before hitting "send" on some of the more volatile posts).

[Sandman]

Originally posted by Yosemite Joy:
I find it curious that people who do not have children have an opinion on spanking children.


I think that's just silly. I don't murder people, but can't I have an opinion on what happens to murderers? I am not a politician, but can I not have an opinion on politics? If you see your neighbor beating his kid, do you have to have a kid yourself in order to act? I think everyone has a right to have an opinion on parenting, without being a parent themselves. Afterall, we were all raised by our parents, so we have some experience on the matter. http://oakhurstonline.com/icon/tongue.gif

[jakobscalpel]

Originally posted by High_Roller:
I look upon the physical action more as a way to teach a child NOT to behave dangerously or inapropriately.


Then we are saying exactly the same thing. You are using a double negative and I'm using a straight positive.


Of course there are alternatives to spanking. That's why reasonable parents usually use it as a last resort. But if those alternatives have no effect, and the child continues to do things that may endanger their health or life, swats can bring a swift cure.


This is also my exact point. I said that ProSpankers feel that there are no valid alternatives in some situations, as do you, since you label the alternatives as having "no effect". If an alternative has no effect then it really isn't an alternative, is it?


And if spankings bring on feelings that are less than warm and fuzzy, well, that's the whole point. Kids aren't supposed to like it or feel good about it.


I agree they don't like it. But just because hitting a kid might fix a behavior short term and could perhaps fix it forever, that still doesn't make it the best approach. Not if you believe, as I do, that for those willing to take the time every situation has a valid alternative.


Granted, the feelings instilled upon receiving a swat should not be mortal fear and psychological trauma or lead to 10 years of group therapy, but those extremes can be easily avoided in a loving family.


I agree completely. I don't think occasional spanking will emotionally scar a kid. I just feel that there is no reason to find out, either.


I also believe that the main reason older children do not normally get spanked is because they can be reasoned with. Their minds are mature enough to understand most of your explanations.


See, this is the argument I dislike the most. It implies that, since younger kids cannot understand an explanation, then hitting them is the only way to make them understand. Why would they understand the motivation behind a spank any better than an explanation. Again, it might stop the behavior through spank aversion, but the same thing happens if you take the time to explain the situation and consequences on their level. It works. My kids are no smarter than anyone else's but this approach has worked well their whole lives. No spanks needed. And if we all agree that spanking is a last resport and we don't like doing it, why not try the alternatives? It just takes a little more time and a little more empathy and it works. I say this as someone who was a ProSpanker before I had my own kids and learned not to be through observation and reading.

Yes, reading, Beautiful_Mess. In response to your comment to CandyApple:
What book or magazine did you get that from?

You say this like it is a bad thing. I'm reminded strongly of a great Calvin and Hobbes strip. "Why waste time learning when ignorance is instantaneous."

[beautiful_mess38]

To each there own people. I will discipline my children the way I see fit.

[jakobscalpel]

Of course you will. I think everyone here will. And that is at it should be. Has anyone ever been persuaded by something written on a forum in the history of the internet? The internet is the great divider, time waster, and endless argument all rolled into one. But at least you don’t have to drive to get to this particular cocktail party.

I couldn't live in a country where laws dictate how I raise my kid. Spanking "bans" in some European countries are idiotic and presumptuous. The government knows how to raise my kids and I don’t? Not a chance. The same goes for car seats, mandatory schooling, vaccinations, and every other government mandate that I’m supposed to follow because some faceless entity said so. Whatever.

[oakhurstleaf]

To discipline is to teach. Something to think about.

I never had to spank my children to teach them about dangers...like the street or the hot stove. They learned early what "no" meant and "ouch", before they could even talk. And when they were too young to reason with and understand exactly what i was saying I supervised the heck out of them and protected them from dangers...I never let them set foot in the street or get near the stove. I would never spank them for having natural curiosity that led them into danger either.

I don't like spanking. I like discipline though.

When I got spanked, slapped or paddled with a shoe, I felt the anger from my parents...I felt they really hated me for whatever I did. And frankly, I hated them right back for what they did to me. I forgave them. They forgave me. After time had passed.

What really worked for me, particularly in my early teens when i was getting in a mess of trouble with my peers was "Toughlove". No more spankings, but taking away my privileges and being grounded. I turned myself around for the better. This was much more effective in teaching me that there are consequences for actions. Consequences that really hurt...and not in a physical, abusive way.

[candyappleisland]

Well said, Jak and Oakhurstleaf. YJ I agree it's not as serious as the issues you mentioned, but is only a piece of the puzzle when dealing with bigger issues like drug abuse.

Yes I have kids, 2.5 and 5, we homeschool, so there is no break for me.

Yes I have a couple of those degrees too, and what can I say, was your friend paying attention?

The implied intent of the symbols and language I used was verbally abusive. Therefore that invalidates my argument that physically punitive actions are not abusive? It should just re-enforce it.

Listen, you all are using a punishment system instead of a natural consequences system, like Oak said. The problem with punishments is they give the child and the parent no chance to learn anything, it only gives the parent power.

As the child continues to gain control of his own life and take responsibility, the result is more and more harsh punishments, which finally lead to physical force. To tell someone you are going to hit them if they trespass is not love. It's not a natural consequences, it's you asserting your power over them in order to control their learning. It's a disservice to them, they don't learn to fix their own problems, to find solutions, to understand why they can't do what they did, they learn not to rely on you for help, you become the enemy in these instances. It creates a battleground for control and respect. And no one wins.

{End Rant}

[Yosemite Joy]

Originally posted by jakobscalpel:
Yes, reading, Beautiful_Mess. In response to your comment to CandyApple:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">What book or magazine did you get that from?

You say this like it is a bad thing. I'm reminded strongly of a great Calvin and Hobbes strip. "Why waste time learning when ignorance is instantaneous." </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Seriously! Good grief since when is it a bad thing to pick up a book and read it? I have half a dozen pregnancy books, labour/delivery books, and a dozen more on parenting. And I am no novice on any of it.

If people would stop watching David Blaine crap and pick up a book once in a while the world would be a different place.


/off topic

[beautiful_mess38]

Oh for God's sake you people crack me up. I asked a simple question.

Your the one's that took it to be negative and not as a question.

And my friend I was referring to just so happens to be a member of these forums and answered the question with a yes.

[Mysteefied]

gosh, I don't think I've ever felt so judged. Frankly, I don't care what extremest feel about me, My kids are awesome, they aren't scared of me and they live a damn good life. I have friends who do and don't spank and we all get along fine, without PUSHING our beleifs on one another. I read, I watch David Blaine and I spanked my kids..We have a great life.
I recently got a new bumper sticker. It reads
" Don't assume I share your prejudices" Love it!

[Ironhorse]

http://oakhurstonline.com/icon/applause.gif

[jakobscalpel]

Thanks to all for the conversation. I honestly found out much more than I ever wanted to know. A couple last factoids:

- 68 percent of American parents think spanking is not only good but essential to child rearing;

- 90 percent of parents spank their toddlers at least three times a week; two-thirds spank them once a day;

It is extremely rare that I just can't tolerate someone else's actions. This topic is one of them. If you fall in the categories listed above you are not a good parent. End of story. Sorry.

PS: I don't really mean you are bad parents. I'm sure you are probably good ones. But it is just soooo frustrating to feel something this strongly and to see the VAST majority of other parents disagree. I don't get it. I really don't/

[electroman]

Originally posted by candyappleisland:
I am so *&^%$#%^(*(& **&^^%%$ disgusted and shocked by the amount of human ignorance and disregard for basic respect for people, to a family member!

<span class="ev_code_BLUE">...blah blah blah...ad nauseum</span>

"I guess I turned out ok." You hear it over and over. No, spanking doesn’t create mass murders. But how did it shape your life’s view? What did it make you feel when it happened to you? Shame, anger, frustration, fear, loss of parental respect? These are great things to teach kids.

<span class="ev_code_BLUE">...blah blah blah...ad nauseum</span>



I think you're projecting your own psycological shortcomings on the rest of humanity.

And you have the audacity to call others IGNORANT?
You bumped your head.
Hard.

[jakobscalpel]

Originally posted by electroman:
And you have the audacity to call others IGNORANT?


I know this wasn't quoting my post, but to answer your question anyway. Yes, I do have the audacity to call others ignorant, when they are.

[CatdaBrat]

I think the subject is a lot like the ones about politics and religion. People feel very strongly about it, wish they could do something to help change the world, and experience frustration when it becomes much like swimming against the current.

All we can do is live by our own conscience, do our best as we see it, and hope things work out. As someone mentioned before, nobody ever changed their mind because of an Internet forum.

[Californee Girl]

Good arguments. Really got me thinking. I dare to say that I have even been influenced.

[Sandman]

I can see both sides of this and I'm not gonna tell anyone how to raise their kids unless I see them abusing them. It is not the best thing to spank your kids. It's really not the best thing to yell at them either. If that is your first line of discipline, your probably not trying very hard to find another way to teach your child. But in some cases, I can see how spanking would be okay. I was never really spanked as a child. That's probably due to the fact that my Dad was beat by his Dad... plus, I had a disability that didn't really need to be aggravated. I was sent to my room for my punishment. My Mom wouldn't even yell at me... she just had to give me a look and I knew she was not messing around. I was a good kid. I didn't do anything terribly bad and I was probably only grounded a few times. My biggest problem was not showing respect for my father. But I only disrespected him when he disrespected my Mom, sister or I. I had no problem calling him an asshole when he was being an asshole and I accepted the punishment of going to my room. It was worth it. http://oakhurstonline.com/icon/lol.gif If you know my Dad you will understand this. He can be quite the child himself sometimes. I will probably avoid spanking my kids. I do think that I will be able to find another form of punishment that doesn't involve physically hitting them. Plus, I think that if you provide enough love to your child, he/she will not want to do anything against your wishes. A lot of parents just take the easy way out and spank the kid or yell at them instead of taking the time to discuss the issue and explain why it was a bad thing for them to do. Taking away things, like TV, video games, etc., seems to be a good way to get a childs attention without harming them. Also, grounding the child for repeat offenses will make the child think about what he/she did for several days. Grounding a kid to his/her room for too long will just make them rebel and sneak out though. It's tricky and will be different for every kid. But in general, I think that a child will behave just fine without being spanked or yelled at as long as you take the time and provide the child with love, respect and talk to him/her about why certain things are not okay.

[electroman]

Originally posted by jakobscalpel:
... majority of other parents disagree. ...

how many children do you have, and what are their ages?

[John @ 3300ft.]

Originally posted by electroman:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by candyappleisland:
I am so *&^%$#%^(*(& **&^^%%$ disgusted and shocked by the amount of human ignorance and disregard for basic respect for people, to a family member!

<span class="ev_code_BLUE">...blah blah blah...ad nauseum</span>

"I guess I turned out ok." You hear it over and over. No, spanking doesn’t create mass murders. But how did it shape your life’s view? What did it make you feel when it happened to you? Shame, anger, frustration, fear, loss of parental respect? These are great things to teach kids.

<span class="ev_code_BLUE">...blah blah blah...ad nauseum</span>



I think you're projecting your own psycological shortcomings on the rest of humanity.

And you have the audacity to call others IGNORANT?
You bumped your head.
Hard. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

For once I entirly agree with Electroman.... http://oakhurstonline.com/icon/laugh.gif

[beautiful_mess38]

Sandman you make it sound so easy and I wish it was. But, unfortunetly it's not that easy.
Being a parent is a very hard job. Sometimes the parent feels worse then the kid. I have never ever known a parent who has not yelled at thier kid and I'm around parents all the time well practically every day.
There is something that almost every parent does and its called "tough love".

[Mysteefied]

I think that if you provide enough love to your child, he/she will not want to do anything against your wishes.

Sandman, I truley think this statement is cute...not kidding, I'm being real here. I couldn't love anyone or anything in my life more than my children, I live each and every day to make sure they are happy, healthy and Loved! However...EVERY child pushes the limit. weather they want to or not, They do things against your wishes, no matter how much you love them.

I believe you will make an incredible daddy one day, and probably be surprised at the things you learn from you child and about yourself when it happens. http://oakhurstonline.com/icon/happy.gif

[Sandman]

All I know is I was a really well behaved child and I was never spanked and rarely yelled at. I don't think I had the best father in the world. I love him and I learned a lot from him, but he had (and still does have) a lot of growing up to do himself. My mother, on the other hand, was great! She did the majority of parenting in our home and I'm thankful for that. I didn't have a desire to do bad things (ie. vandalism, run away from home, etc) because I didn't want to upset my Mother. It kills me to see her angry and I have/had no desire to do anything that would make her angry or sad. She provided me with so much love and so much attention as a child that I could not imagine hurting her. She was always reasonable and if I did something that was not okay she would talk to me, not scream or hit, just talk. It always worked. I always ended up agreeing with her.

I'm not saying that I was a saint or anything, I did some bad things... like I yelled back at my friends Mom one time when she yelled at me for playing a prank on her son. It was a harmless prank... other neighbor kids and I put my pad lock on his bike so that he couldnt ride it home fromt he bus stop. It was funny at the time and I took the lock off after 5 minutes or something. The kid was a baby and took off on his bike headed home to cry to his Mom about it. My Mom sat me down and explained that even though she yelled at me I was to respect my elders and I should apologize to her. I understood and learned a lesson. I didn't play pranks on the neighbor kid anymore and didn't yell back at adults after that... I respected them and let my Mom do the yelling back for me (if needed). http://oakhurstonline.com/icon/lol.gif That's just one example of something that happened at a young age. It still sticks in my mind as one of the worse things I did.

I was always mature for my age though... I grew up fast. I had no desire to do childish things like TP a house or whatever. I had neighbors that always got into trouble with vandalism and stuff. That crybaby neighbor smashed all of the headlights out on our cars one night. I was a good kid though. My Mom respected me and I respected her back.

I have cousins that were raised by parents that always yelled. "I told you to go to bed"!!!, "I can't believe you did that"!!!. I feel really bad that they were raised in that kind of environment. Their parents just acted like their boss always telling them what to do and yelling. That's no way to treat a kid. Kids deserve respect too.

Also, it really depends on the parents mood when he/she spanks the child. If its done out of anger, that's child abuse. If a kid keeps doing something that annoys you and you get tired of it and spank him/her, thats not right. You are doing it out of anger, not love. A parent should always cool down before spanking a kid. I see parents get angry and smack their kid way too often and thats not right.

[oakhurstleaf]

The "toughlove" my parents used on me when I became an out-of-control, rebellious teen was a bonafide philosophy involving a parental support group. It was not "tough" in that the parents used force or physical punishment...it was tough in that the parents took a firm stand and stood behind firm, set consequences for specific actions. It was "while you live in this household, you must adhere to these household rules or this will happen." Yes, it was tough on me at the time...but it made me accept responsibilty for my actions and I really changed my focus on life and grew up...way before many of my peers. If my parents hadn't changed their M.O., who knows where I'd be now.

I wasn't spanked, slapped or paddled much in my youth...it had to have been "really bad" and made my parents "really angry"...I can't imagine what it would have been like if it were 3 times a day (like in the posted poll) over every mistake or error or poor choice I made. That to me is way overboard. When I got swatted, I knew my parents were very angry at me and that is why I felt like they hated me at least in that moment...it really meant something. To have had it done to me on a frequent basis probably would have not meant much except that my parents were just plain jerks. I probably would've had a long-lasting resentment for that.

I also think that we can't necessarily look to the way our parents raised us as the rule of thumb...afterall, in many cases they were just winging it themselves and may very well have been poorly parented themselves. I know my parents look back on their child-rearing years and feel they didn't always make the best choices and in many instances would've done things differently.

"When we know better, we do better." --Maya Angelou

[Yosemite Joy]

Hey, I was the one who made the David Blaine comment. And I never said anything to "push my views" on anyone.

I didn't even name the books I own, so as far as any of you know they are the Dobson collection and the "Spare the Rod, Spoil the Brat" volumes 1-8.

I think that after being hit (spanked too on occasion) by a person who "loved" me as a child, I have very rarely exercized my superior strength upon my child's behind. Lately it has really occured to me that I have too much anger over the little things in life, and since I have used that anger to protect myself for 26 years, though I need not anymore, I should go to anger management and overcome it.

Hitting out of anger on a parents part is wrong. It would be like hitting your next door neighbor because the immigrants he hired to do his lawn or whatever are throwing their Budweiser bottles on your lawn. (Ok so that is really happening to me). It pisses you off, and it hasn't stopped even though you put the bottles on his driveway (out of driving range) and asked him kindly to tell his workers to either not drink, or give them a trash can. I guess since I have given him a couple warnings I should hit him now.

No one is perfect, and you can't say for sure that if you aren't (yes, I said "aren't") spanking Suzies butt once in a while (for the really atrocious things that a two year old does (tongue in cheek)) they won't turn out to be serial killers or complete degenerates?

[Mibrew]

Heck....I was always whipped with a belt from my dad, and I'm talking about real beatings http://oakhurstonline.com/icon/sad3.gif

I even remember like being beaten by my teacher in front of the class (JR high)with a real thick paddle too...now those were also beatings.
I was so scared to death anytime my dad felt I did something wrong, I was always hiding, the best thing that happened is when my dad left, my Mom would never touch me, but I hated my dad for everything he did, my dad is gone now and ...well most of you know about my Mom, I love my Mom so much (mommy's boy) but my teacher, ya you know it...I went back after a few years in high school and visited my spanking teacher in JR high, I was going to kick the crap out of this guy, and he knew why I was visiting there, and he new he was guilty, but his health was such bad shape I had to let it go...

My Mom knew nothing that was going on in school, I always kept to myself, but she knew my dad was beating me, but was scared to say anything, boy have things changed now-a-days.

light butt spankings.............I'll take it..

but, beatings, whipping, welt marks...

no thanks.....I'm coming after you when I grow up

I'm going to remember, its going to effect....

this is my opinion only (Ive been there)

[Kim]

You know, I think the punishment has to fit the crime, so to speak. There's an age kids get to when natural consequences don't always work, and then you have to get creative. For instance, when my little bit got into a car with a stranger to ride to her babysitter's house (because she was afraid of Derek..see his thread...) I made her call everyone who loved her and tell them what she did so she could hear from them how important she is and that she should be more careful with herself. But then were times when she just wanted to test me and didn't care if the consequence was a time out or no Mr. Rogers Neigborhood...when you spend all day with a person you know what's on her mind. That's when the previously mentioned, slap on the bottom with the bare hand came into play. It was always after the count to three thing. When she was 5, I was picking her up from daycare and she wouldn't pick up her toys so I started counting and the babysitter started rolling her eyes. When Little Bit started picking up her toys after I got to one, babysitter said that I was the first parent she ever saw that counting worked. Hell, now she's 18 and it still works. Why? Because about 3 occasions resulting in slaps on the diaper and then an explanation why made her understand that Mom means what she says. We discussed the topic today since it's brought up here, and she remembers the spankings and that she didn't like them, but she says she didn't hate me or feel threatened. This is her personality, though and you have to go with how your kid reacts to things.
Off the soapbox and headed to the fridge for a glass of wine. Spent too much of the day fantasizing about spanking a bass player. http://oakhurstonline.com/icon/evil.gif Or was he spanking me?

[Pop-Rocks]

I was spanked with a belt when I was bad and I learned to not be bad and I respected my parents because it thought me not to talk back to my elders and to show respect to everyone. I have swatted my daughter's hand when she was doing something dangerous and said no and now when I say no because she might be doing something dangerous she stops and goes somewhere else safe to play. I may not be perfect but my daughter is crazy about me and I am crazy about her. I also believe that everyone has there own Idea on how to raise a child and that is there own opinion and I think it rude for people to tell other people
there a bad parent. Who's right is it anyways to tell us we are bad parents unless you’re a professional. I have a sister in-law that does not let her kids watch Harry Potter because of witchery and I want my child to watch Harry Potter because children need Imagination. So like I said she has her opinion and I have mine and I don't tell her she is a bad parent and she doe's not tell me I am a bad parent. I also don't think it matters on how many or if you do or don't have kids everyone was a kid at one time or another. I got 1 18 month old girl and my sister in-law has 4 growing boy ages 15, 13, 11, 9. Remember this is my own opinion.

[beautiful_mess38]

After 3 weeks of telling my child not to go to a friends house behind us without letting me know and doing the "talk", grounding to the room, no tv. I had to do the spank yesterday.
The child walked out the front door. I stood at the child's level and told the child not to go up the hill. Told the child the mom is in the hospital sick and the family is sad. Do Not Go Up There. The child said I know mom, I wont go .

Well guess what. The child got spanked on the bottom.

[CatdaBrat]

Sometimes life just requires "the basics."

On a certain level, it may sound like it's a good thing to never make a move until you've consulted 100 different books by 100 different experts.

But -- if I had depended entirely on that method of child raising, and failed to turn to my own personal assessment of each situation requiring discipline, my kids would probably be sitting in some counselor's office getting their confused heads filled with "feel-good" psycho-babble about how nothing is their fault, etc. *gag*

My "kids" are grown now (ages 20 and 27) and successful, well-adjusted and happy and even though I DID read and observe a lot about parenting, I always had the confidence that I knew my children much better than some author or professor who never met them. You can't learn all about life from a textbook, I don't care what the experts say!