Maintaining small-town charm...

[oakhurstleaf]

I think we'd all agree that Oakhurst has far too many fast-food chain restaurants for such a small town...some may like it, others not. And unfortunately, realtors and prospectors have pretty much decided the progressive path of this town (also the water and sewage problems have kept growth at a slower pace....maybe it's been a good thing in some ways)

I read this article about Nantucket (pop 10,000, tourist town) and thought of Oakhurst...how would you feel about banning any more chain stores from coming to Oakhurst?

Nantucket Votes to Ban Chain Stores Thu Apr 6, 1:48 PM ET



NANTUCKET, Mass. - Nantucket joined several other historic tourist towns across the country in approving a measure that would ban chain stores from the island's downtown, a move endorsed by more than 480 residents at a town meeting.

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The rule would bar any new chains with more than 14 outlets that have standardized menus, trademarks, uniforms or other homogeneous decor from opening downtown. The ban would not affect gas stations, grocery stores, banks and other service providers.

"I'm extremely gratified," said independent book seller Wendy Hudson, who proposed the ban. "I guess it feels validating ... people saw the balance and need to protect our character rather than this amendment just being another new regulation."

The measure passed by a unanimous voice vote Tuesday night, but still needs to be approved by the state Attorney General's office.

Other historic tourist towns have passed similar measures, including Bristol, R.I.; Ogunquit, Maine; and Carmel-by-the-Sea, Calif. The driving motive for the bans is to preserve a quaint, small town atmosphere.

Last year, clothier Ralph Lauren paid $6.5 million for a building on Nantucket's Main Street and hung his trademark polo sign outside an upscale boutique. The proposed ban would not affect that store.

Other chains have tried the Nantucket market and closed after a few years, including Crabtree & Evelyn and Talbots. The offseason — when the island's population shrinks to 10,000 from 50,000 in August — is hard for many businesses.

[Yosemite Joy]

That would be fantastic.

[Sandman]

It would be nice, but I doubt it could happen. Perhaps Bass Lake and Coarsegold could do something like that though to keep the charm.

[Californee Girl]

I think that would be an awesome idea. I would register to vote just to sign that petition. http://oakhurstonline.com/icon/yes.gif

[oakhurstleaf]

I think it would still work for Oakhurst...one might say the charm is already lost and it's too late for that. But one could also say, enough is enough already...no more. Preserve what we have and any future growth needs to be grass-roots, localized, and community-based...not corporate expansion. Y'know what I mean?

How would you feel if this ban were in effect just a couple of years ago? Would you be fine without having the new Starbucks, Jamba Juice, Quiznos, and Jack-in-the-Box? All those chains came in within a 9 month period. That was a huge wave....are you up for more of those? And how would you feel about the big guys putting the little guys out of business?

[Newcomer]

I used to frequent Jamba Juice very often until I got the formula for the orange appeal there. I now make it at home and only go there every now and then. I do love Quizno's subs and am glad that they came here as a good sandwich alternative to the old burger places.
I would like to see at least one or two more food choices in coarsgold though.

[oakhurstleaf]

I've only been to Jamba Juice once. I've never been to the Quizno's or the new Starbucks (any of the new places in that center). Jack in the Box a few times, but I could live without it...more for the kids than me. But they could live without it too.

Guess I don't see the need in many of the chain places we have....there are already existent alternatives or I'm just not their type of customer. If I want the big names, I hit 'em up in Fresno about once a month on average. That's enough for me. I don't care to have it all or have all the choices rather, otherwise I would've chosen to live in the big city. I came from that environment, and I frankly don't miss it...it's fun to visit though.

[oakhurstleaf]

The only comparisons I was trying to make with Oakhurst is that they're both small towns with small local populations and being tourist destinations. While, yes, Oakhurst is often a pass-thru for many tourists...it is also a destination for many. Oakhurst is a place where tourists do stay for extended periods (more than two nights!) as a base of sorts. There is much to see and do within a short drive in just about every direction. They also enjoy what is here. Oakhurst does offer some history and culture (Fresno Flats Historical Park, Wassama Roundhouse, etc), community events (fairs), scenic trails and spots...there are unique shops and good independent restaurants (some of the best within many miles).

I agree that poor planning...well, actually the non-existence of good planning is evident. A lot of this has nothing to do with the community or town not knowing what it needs or wants to best benefit the town or having any foresight into it's future. It's basically been a matter of land for sale, being developed by the highest bidder who gets to put whatever they want on it whether it makes good sense or not, is attractive or not, is ideal for the long term or not. There's been no planning beyond each individual lot. No flow. This has more to do with a town that has no say, no control...just a county that makes approvals and takes in more tax dollars than it gives back. It's been screwed up for a long time.

Until Oakhurst takes control of itself, it will have a hard time maintaining and further establishing it's identity. All the chains have in some way given Oakhurst an identity of the last stop for Starbucks...or name your fast-food chain. That's not an identity we want. But that's how it looks to people entering our town for the first time with no foreknowledge of what Oakhurst really is (a town with a community, a history and a reason to stay a while....

I should add that the Sierra Visitors Bureau is doing a great job in getting Oakhurst know as a travel destination. They're doing way more than most people know.

[Yosemite Joy]

I would love it if there were an independent book store in Oakhurst, unfortunately they always go out of business (what does that say about us?).

And hey, we are distinctive and have "rich history".. we have the Talking Bear, oh wait, no we don't? Does he talk? Is he there still? Aww crap, nevermind.

[oakhurstleaf]

I need to retract a statement...I have been to the new Starbucks before. I met Mysteefied there once some months ago...but if not for that, I haven't been there. She initiated the meeting place. But anyway...

I have nothing against Starbucks, but I guess I'm against them taking business away from the local, independent coffe joints like Zanders and Yosemite Coffee Roasting Company...it's not as though Oakhurst needed another coffee joint especially a powerhouse that would hurt our already existent independent coffee places that don't have the name recognition of the corporate giant.

I see the sign at the old 41 Trading Post lot that says "Shop Locally"...and that's really what this town needs to do if they want local, independent merchants to thrive in this small town. That's what contributes to small town charm...our unique, independent locally run shops, restaurants, and services. If the "chains" keep on coming in and swallowing up the small guy's customer base (local and tourist), then small guys will go out of business and what are we left with? Not much but more vacant spaces and constant business turn-over, loss of character and individuality, and nothing but a town of familiar logos. That is why I think a restriction or ban against any new chains coming to Oakhurst would be beneficial. Of course, that wouldn't be the only remedy.

[cak]

Oakhurst needs to have something more than a string of strip malls along 41. If there ever was a downtown, it's long gone (does Fresno Flats count? did it ever?)

There was talk of a special development zone along the creek. I think that would be grand - if we could build up a new town center along the creek, behind the Rite-Aid, where the library and Sierra Telephone are. Small shops & restaurants, off the main drag, walkable.

This would be in contrast to the heavy development along 41 - development that is there because of the pass-through traffic. We're never going to make that go away, and I don't think we should. But we can do better.

The sidewalks on 41 are a nice idea, but does anyone really use them?

[Yosemite_Wolf]

Cak is right.. we need some sort of walking town... even morro bay has that!! one fears walking 41 to visit busineesses.. we need to have some sort of definate are... going along 41... that walkers can safely walk.
same goes for Coarsegold.

[jakobscalpel]

I'd love to see Oakhurst get a feel similar to Mariposa, but I doubt it would happen. The two main problems are the amount of traffic 41 has to handle, especially in tourist season, and the large distance between existing business. Tough to make a walking mall using the existing structure.

Walking malls are great, but they still need alot of parking and they need to centrally located. I'd be concerned that anything off of 426 would not meet these criteria and would probably fail. The best place I could see would be the empty lots and existing gravel/rock business near the junction of 41/49. It is centrally located, with parking nearby, and a decent setting if the gravel business was bought out because the mall could span and line the river.

[Ironhorse]

I always thought Oakhurst missed the boat architecturally. There could (IMO should) have been a requirement that businesses have architecture features reminiscent of the west, or mountains, or something like that. That would have enhanced the appeal of the town too.

[CatdaBrat]

I know it's too late and that I have mentioned it before on the forums, but I still can't stop thinking about the lost opportunity of having the "Old Mill Village" living up to its name.

What a great location to draw people in, with 41 and 49 converging right there. There could have been shops in the old, weathered-wood style, perhaps one to resemble an old lumber mill with displays of historic and antique equipment related to logging, lumber mills, ranching and mining.

It could have been the Oakhurst version of what Cannery Row did after the sardine canneries died. Tourists love western history ... I knew of people from places like Germany, etc., who LOVED Coarsegold's little old saddle shop (remember Buck?) because it exhuded history of the Old West, cowboys, etc. There were people who even bought saddles and had them shipped back to Europe, even though they did not own horses.

Who wants to travel all the way from Europe or Japan, etc., to see another Jack in the Box or gas station? Guess I will never stop lamenting this lost opportunity, but hey, it was up to the developers and they did what they saw as best at the time, I suppose.

[oakhurstleaf]

The junction of 41 and 49 is definately lost to homogenic commercialism...the type of shopping centers and concentrated fast-food hubs you'd see anywhere in suburbia.
Yes, it's too late to rectify that.

Hwy 41 is definately no Main St...where one could stroll and shop. The hodge podge of new and old is so disconnected, and jumbled. Perhaps, pedestrian friendly and aesthetically pleasing sidewalks with landscaping, strategically placed bench seating areas with waste receptacles, and western-style street lamps lining both sides of the highway linking the wide range of businesses would somehow give the main drag a sense of "place". Of course, this fantasy overhaul would cost a small fortune...but then if we got to spend some of well-deserved tax dollars...it could very well be done. There are a lot of parking lots that need restoration...like at the library and Chamber. There are a a few empty, neglected, eyesore lots...somebody sitting on a good piece of real estate, but giving the town a defunct look...the old market lot next to Chevron and of course, the corner of 49 and 41. Can't something be done. Even if no business can get built there (for time being), can't the lots at least look pleasing to the eye? I understand the chain-link fence is to protect from transients and trash...but the fences look like trash!

I think the whole Sierra Star property, and all around it...including the the Remember When lot could use a complete overhaul. A start-over from scratch proposal...I could come up with some real drastic changes for those properties...combining the two and turning it into a real "place to be".

Character and charm...not an impossibility.

[Ironhorse]

If Oakhurst ever became incorporated, I suppose they might be eligible for Community Block Grant funds. That's used in other cities to rennovate building fronts and such.

[BGW]

Originally posted by cak:
Oakhurst needs to have something more than a string of strip malls along 41. If there ever was a downtown, it's long gone (does Fresno Flats count? did it ever?)

There was talk of a special development zone along the creek. I think that would be grand - if we could build up a new town center along the creek, behind the Rite-Aid, where the library and Sierra Telephone are. Small shops & restaurants, off the main drag, walkable.

This would be in contrast to the heavy development along 41 - development that is there because of the pass-through traffic. We're never going to make that go away, and I don't think we should. But we can do better.

The sidewalks on 41 are a nice idea, but does anyone really use them?

The River Parkway Project is still a twinkle. It can be found with the newly approved and largely uncontested Oakhurst Area Plan. I have been having a hard time figuring out which side of the fence I need to be standing on with this issue.

River water quality has been shown to vastly improve after the contruction of a River parkway. The overall benefits to the community are also huge.

I get tangled up in the politics right about the the place where it becomes an eminate domain issue to gain the property for this project. There are many private residences in the path of this wonderful project. Mine included.

The other negative that gives me grief is that all tax monies will go to the county and not to Oakhurst Proper.

Though greatly opposed to the recently proposed RV park in the River Parkway project area. I am not so opposed to a planned educational/ cultural/ historical/ shopping mall (for lack of a better discription) in this area. A place that offers hands on learning for all.

Leaf said something that is very true. Until Oakhurst incorporates (and I haven't made a judgment call here either) we are at the mercy of Madera County Planning. Sure, we have the OCAC which makes reccommendations as to what they think will be best for our community, but it is just that, a reccommendation. The County can turn a deaf ear.

The Starbucks 'strip mall' seemingly appeared out of no where because it was zoned for such a venture. No CUP to approve; meaning no public imput required. A scary thought for many Oakhurst residents is that while the new Area Plan was going through the approval process, there is a good chance the zoning of your property changed; supposedly to benefit the community as a whole. The approval process of the Area Plan basically drew no local concern or opposition.

Along with such projects as the River Parkway are proposed new roads. Who's property do you think these roads will be cut through and how do you think the County proposes to get that land?

I know that Leaf, myself, and several others stay informed as to what is going on with the dirt under our feet. It will benefit the Community as a whole if more people did the same. Having a say so in how your town is developed is always a plus.

[cak]

I think that any successful walkable "town" needs to be *away* from 41 and 49. Those roads are too big, too busy, and there's no going back.

That makes the River Parkway Project more appealing (to me). I admit that there are eminent domain issues. I don't have a good answer for that. I want Oakhurst to have a small area that is walkable, with streets that are small enough to walk across, with parking that is out of sight behind the buildings. I think of Ashland and Hood River in Oregon: both have vital city squares and walkable downtowns, with large highways that bypass town.

Oakhurst has the highway already. 41 is a mess, and won't be fixed until there is a place for businesses to move *to*.

A western theme would be fine with me, even if it means a strict code like the one in Santa Fe that specifies the 27 different shades of tan that are allowed on the stucco.

But until Oakhurst incorporates, there is no way to push this kind of thing through. That doesn't mean we should give up.

I note that Freeport, Maine had resisted chain businesses until McDonald's came along with very very deep pockets. The city fathers allowed them in - but forced them to renovate a house from the 18th century and the only visible logo is a version of the golded arches frosted into the glass.

It can be done. It takes a vision and political will.

And money, of course.

Back to the incorporation discussion, anyone?

[oakhurstleaf]

I agree that 41 and 49 are too busy...but that is where the bulk of all the businesses are. I don't think it's such a hot idea to get a place for businesses to move to and let the original heart of our town go to hell. That is where all the motels are too. While it seems like a good idea to just start up a whole new town center/square off somewhere away from traffic, in itself, that'd be a huge effort. And direct congestion there as well.

There would be problems in creating sidewalk in some parts of Hwy 41...like where Judy's Donuts is. Some little strip malls or centers along 41 have their parking strips dangerously (in my opinion) right up to the 41 shoulder. How do you engineer a sidewalk there...unless the parking could somehow be engineered to the rear of these structures.

Already people walk up and down Hwy 41 even with the hazards...and there are intermittent sidewalks, particularly where there are newer structures (this I think is a recent building requirement)....with a good deal of money and engineering, we could have a complete sidewalk system through town. A couple pedestrian bridges and we'd be set.

Freeport Maine had a very novel idea...too bad we didn't think of that when we (or the county, rather) approved the arrivals of the recent big name players. Thank God we have a Harry H. Baker and Sierra Telephone and others who invest and are hugely charitable in this community. I think these corporate businesses and multi-unit franchise owners (like the owner of Jack-in-the Box who owns 8 or so restaurants) should be so kind as to help the communities they are making money in or at least we should have made that a prerequesite for them doing business here. Excellent idea!

[cak]

I'm sorry, but I just don't see 41 ever being a hospitable environment for walking. People want to walk along storefronts and window shop - they don't want to walk along a sidewalk with a highway on one side and a parking lot on the other.

I know I don't.

[Ironhorse]

Thank God we have a Harry H. Baker and Sierra Telephone and others who invest and are hugely charitable in this community. I think these corporate businesses and multi-unit franchise owners (like the owner of Jack-in-the Box who owns 8 or so restaurants) should be so kind as to help the communities they are making money in or at least we should have made that a prerequesite for them doing business here. Excellent idea!

The man who owns Jack in the Box, Mr. Wallensted (sp?) mostly like support, or would support if asked, causes/charities in Oakhurst. He always provided donations to the Police Department, Sheriff's Department, Little League, etc. in Madera and the other towns he owns franchises in. Before saying a blanket "they don't support the community" wouldn't it be better to actually check if they do? JMO (And many of those owners belong to local service clubs such as Lions, Elks, etc., so they provide donations of time and money to the communities that way too.)

[oakhurstleaf]

I don't see the Hwy as a freeway. However, that can be argued. It is just a two lane highway...and if speed limits were lowered and enforced, and maybe another light signal with crosswalks, where cars would cruise thru town opposed to peel thru..then I could see it work. I regularly see pedestrians walking Hwy 41 (on the sidewalks and where sidewalk would be)...probably tourists, a lot of teens, and citizens without cars. If I lived near town, I'd probably walk there too. You might even spot me jay-jogging across Hwy 41! I don't consider Hwy 41 as furiously busy as some of the Boulevards and Avenues from where I came.

Downtown Fullerton, ever been there? Antique stores, boutiques, restaurants, etc line Harbor Blvd on both sides...great walking town. Way more traffic than Hwy 41.

I agree though that having a parking lot on one side of the sidewalk with Hwy on the other would be a bad idea.....that's where new parking to the rear and sides of buildings would have to be reconfigured...such as in the case of centers that have parking right up to the shoulder of the Hwy.

Originally posted by cak:
I'm sorry, but I just don't see 41 ever being a hospitable environment for walking. People want to walk along storefronts and window shop - they don't want to walk along a sidewalk with a highway on one side and a parking lot on the other.

I know I don't.

[cak]

It is just a two lane highway.

With plans on the books to widen it to four lanes, all the way through town and beyond.

Highway 41 is nothing like the boulevards in a real city. But the speeds on those boulevards are nothing like those on 41 ... and where they are, no one even thinks about crossing them on foot except at crosswalks.

I'm not trying to be ornery here - I want Oakhurst to be walkable. I just don't think that 41 is where it's going to happen. (49, either.)

[oakhurstleaf]

No oneryness taken...or given. Becoming a 4 lane Hwy doesn't change things for me though I can and do envision the wide shoulder shrinking. However, with better traffic flow and control thru speed limits and signals...traffic can become more of a "Slow down, you're driving through TOWN" mentality. A useful and well-contructed pedestrian system will only enforce that thinking.

[Kahlua Kid]

Originally posted by oakhurstleaf:
I think the whole Sierra Star property, and all around it...including the the Remember When lot could use a complete overhaul. A start-over from scratch proposal...I could come up with some real drastic changes for those properties...combining the two and turning it into a real "place to be".

Character and charm...not an impossibility.

That property - other than the Sierra Star Building (which was not part of the parcel) has been purchased if I remember correctly. It recently went up for sale. And I think its been sold already.

I would love for Oakhurst to get more architecturally "mountain" oriented - I actually think they did a pretty good job on the "Starbucks, Jamba Juice, Quizno's" mall. They at least gave some sort of "log" type architecture to it rather than just another box building.

I really do wish Oakhurst had a tourist sidewalk - even along Highway 41. I think its confusing to any pedestrian walking 41 from perhaps their hotel to a restaurant or shops. The sidewalk goes for a bit, then disappears, then back to sidewalk... what's anyone to think trying to navigate that?

SO... how do we get Oakhurst Incorporated? Thousands of towns have done it, why doesn't Oakhurst?

I feel the same way with Coarsegold. As a resident, I want local control, local decisions... those in Madera don't give a hoot about what we have to look at every day - they just want the tax revenue from it without giving back to our community that generates it - where are the street lights? Where are our sidewalks? Where is our sewer? Where is my nice paved roads? Why do I have to pay $100 extra on top of my property tax bill to pave my neighborhood??? Does a tract home in Madera have to do that, I think not!

[oakhurstleaf]

I don't know what's going on. I don't know why "ACTION" lost traction...but I think the group is still actively working towards incorporation of Oakhurst. I would like to know...if you go to their website, it's in the "local links" here at OF, seemed they got awfully close back in 2003. But nothing since?

I know there is a segment of the population who is against incorporation. Mostly because of fears of the unknown...they worry they'll get taxed more, have more codes to abide by, more law enforcement, the town will become too city-fied and lose it's rural flavor, etc.

But the truth is, if we are our own town...we vote on local taxes, we vote on where our taxes are spent, and even with local government offices...we'd still come out ahead. According to the ACTION committee's expert analysis, we'd even have a surplus even in the first year. We already pay more in taxes (sales and property) to the county then the county gives back. With incorporation, we'd be keeping our tax dollars here where it belongs.

The only incorporated cities in Madera County are Madera itself and Chowchilla....the rest of us are all at the burden of county heads.

Not only can we better the township, but with surpluses we could even enhance state and county operations that have become defunct due to their own financial problems. Like our local schools. The "city" of Oakhurst could put a little of that extra tax revenue into repairing and revamping our local school grounds that've long suffered. YHS is lookin' great...but the elementary schools where Oakhurst kids go could really use some help.

[jakobscalpel]

Originally posted by oakhurstleaf:
I know there is a segment of the population who is against incorporation. Mostly because of fears of the unknown...they worry they'll get taxed more, have more codes to abide by, more law enforcement, ...


I don't see how this list of items constitutes fear of the unknown. With incorporation people/businesses WILL be taxed more, WILL have more codes to follow, and there will be more law enforcement (most likely). The only question to answer is whether those annoyances are outweighed by the benefits.

I wish we could get a walkable area, but after driving through town yesterday evening with this topic in our minds, we couldn't see how it could work. Maybe the River Parkway could be it, but anything off of 41 and the tourist attrition would begin, rasing the question of sustainability. Very unfortunate, since summer evenings at a walkable development up here would be fantastic.

[oakhurstleaf]

Here's a document worth reading regarding taxes and revenue with incorporation, as it appeared a few years back.

http://www.townofoakhurst.com/docs/ifaes2.pdf

[BGW]

ACTION lost its credibility with their water report. They claimed we have more potable water in the area than we know what to do with. Their study and facts were shredded as the testing was all based near or at the valley floor level.

The report is also on their web site if I remember correctly. It is in PDF format. I have read the report front to back. It is an interesting read.

[oakhurstleaf]

The whole water situation up here is another thing that needs a complete overhaul. With incorporation and Hillview someday becoming publicly-owned (I believe the county is setting this up to happen), there could be improvements made on this front through eligibility for government grants. From what I've read, there is plenty of water up here to go around, it just hasn't been tapped into. Hillview, unfortunately, has not had the money because they are in such huge debt (and we're paying for that with our water bills I'm sure) to really improve anything. Last summer as an example, they tapped into more water, but couldn't get the pump system going to deliver it.

I don't know what the heck to think...though I know I think too much. Delusions of grandeur and hope for community improvements and fantastical projects that exceed our current means.

I hate sitting back and letting things fall where they may...but that seems to be the modus operandi.

[cak]

Originally posted by oakhurstleaf:

I don't know what the heck to think...though I know I think too much. Delusions of grandeur and hope for community improvements and fantastical projects that exceed our current means.

I hate sitting back and letting things fall where they may...but that seems to be the modus operandi.

Yup. Which is why I keep trying to stir the pot! :-) Nothing will happen unless we make it happen; the status quo of approving yet another strip mall is too easy.

Oakhurst is the biggest little town in this area, and could be so much more than the "Gasway to Yosemite".

[jakobscalpel]

Originally posted by oakhurstleaf:
Here's a document worth reading regarding taxes and revenue with incorporation, as it appeared a few years back.

http://www.townofoakhurst.com/docs/ifaes2.pdf

Thanks for this link! I took a look at the line items for revenues and expenses. Personally, I think their estimates of expenses are too low by about 25%. Public Works admin at 44,326 in 2006? Planning at ~415k? Wow, I'll believe it when I see it. Still, if these numbers are somewhat accurate, then it doesn't look too bad overall. My favorite revenue item is State Motor Vehicle License Fees coming third, at $637,955 per year. What a scam.

[Ironhorse]

Originally posted by jakobscalpel:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by oakhurstleaf:
Here's a document worth reading regarding taxes and revenue with incorporation, as it appeared a few years back.

http://www.townofoakhurst.com/docs/ifaes2.pdf

Thanks for this link! I took a look at the line items for revenues and expenses. Personally, I think their estimates of expenses are too low by about 25%. Public Works admin at 44,326 in 2006? Planning at ~415k? Wow, I'll believe it when I see it. Still, if these numbers are somewhat accurate, then it doesn't look too bad overall. My favorite revenue item is State Motor Vehicle License Fees coming third, at $637,955 per year. What a scam. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hmmm, all I get when I pull up that link is two pages of an executive summary. What am I doing wrong?

[jakobscalpel]

Sorry, I didn't mention that I went to the homepage and cruised around. Here is the document I was referring to: Final Report (http://www.townofoakhurst.com/docs/Final%20Report.pdf)

[Ironhorse]

Thank you! http://oakhurstonline.com/icon/happy.gif

[9th life]

It's too late

[Patagoniamaniac]

Oregon..Here we come!

[9th life]

Isn't that how we feel about people from Lost Angeles?