Oakhurst Park

[Dodgergirl]

Today was my day off, do nothing day & I had pretty well succeeded in doing just that for most of the morning. My daughter called and asked if I wanted to go to the park with the monster (Justin), her, Pops & the kids.. sounded good and I needed to go to town anyway...Just as I was leaving Davy got off the bus from school so he went with me, too...

When we walked up they were already there & were not too happy with the outbursts coming from a seemingly inebriated lady in the gazebo. This woman's mouth was unbelieveable. Even some of the man in her group walked away from her and her profanity. So,e other parents in the play area were upset & I believe it was one of them who made the initial call to the Sheriff. I was just about ready to go over and have a friendly talk with her (except Pops kept me on a short leash) when a Deputy came walking up. The six or so people in the gazebo spread out all over the place. The lady in question headed (with her 40 ouncer) to the restrooms...

We played with the kids and watched the Deputy ask everyone to quiet down and be respectful of the families... We thought it was over.

Not five minutes after the deputy left most of the group came back and were generally quiet, except the lady with the potty mouth... The next thing I see is a guy stand up in the gazebo, stumble, then kinda fall over, as he was falling, his pants went down, too.. So, now we have a potty mouthed lady & a bare assed man laying in the gazebo. One of the guys in the group tried to help the man up, but it wasn't happening, he also told the woman to be quiet, but having no success, he walked away shaking his head.

Apparently one of the parents went over to the chamber and got a lady from there to come over and see what was happening because there was a lady at the gazebo telling them that it was unacceptable and they would need to go... We continued swinging, keeping the girls facing the opposite direction of the half naked man...

I went over to sit and saw the man stand up, pull up his pants (with the help of a friend) and attempt to walk. Again he stumbled and fell backwards onto the gazebo floor. The back of his head hit first & bounced at least two times before he lay still.

We decided it was time to go when we saw two more Deputies heading across the lawn. (apparently called by the chamber lady).

As we were leaving we saw them try to get the man up, and he did... swinging... Davy said he was pepper sprayed, and I could hear the clicking of the handcuffs... All in all an interesting day in Oakhurst Park.

Before anyone turns this into a homeless bashing thread. let me just say, that is not my intent. I have a respect for the homeless just as I do for any other group of people. The problem is there are good and bad in any group. We are all probably close to one paycheck from being homeless, and does anyone remember that "but for the grace of God go I"?

The man who got arrested? Who knows? It may have been his first day in the Park.. we'll never know... The man who tried to help? I believe he is homeless, and I have seen him before. He's a likable person who I've seen do anything wrong. He's always been respectful when I've seen him... The woman with the potty mouth? She should of known better.... there were little kids within earshot and she knew it... Pops shoulda let me at her..., but then I'd probably be the one pepper sprayed... :rofl:

The response from the Sheriff's dept? Since I don't know when the initial call was made I'd have to guess they were timely since the people were still there misbehaving when they arrived. The chamber people (who I talked to on the way out) said we had a petition available to sign for more patrols in the park and there really wasn't anything they could do. They wouldn't say who called them to report the incident, but I applaud the woman who decided to come out from behind her desk and handle it.. :applause:

It was comforting to see that the Sheriff's didn't just do a walk thru and leave it at that... they came back after a few minutes to check the situation again, and brought with them one of my favorite officers who handled the problem quickly..., I just wish they hadn't of had to use the pepper spray...

[Michelle]

Well it is sad when you can't go to a park and spend the day without the hussle and bussle of that. but you did it right and not say anything. it was taken care of the right way.
Yes we are a paycheck away from being homeless but we are adults to know not to talk like that no matter what around other children...
but you did good and kept with your family and let it get handled the way it did......

:)

[SlimeMold]

What a terrible day at the park. I've enjoyed only a few visits to the park in Oakhurst and never ran into a situation as you described. I hope that this doesn't happen frequently.

On my few visits to the park I've enjoyed walking around the perimeter, saying "Hi" to all those I meet. I thought thats what the park was all about.

I am glad that you did not have to get involved in the situation beyond protecting the kids from what was going on.

By the way, I never even read into your message that you may have been attacking the homeless. To me it sounded like some inconsiderate people.

I hope that your next visit is more pleasant.

[John S]

Okay, I don't want to bash the "homeless" either but there has been a shift in the crowd at the park. Usually they stay away from the play area as they hang out on the far west side of the park. I, for the most part, have a live and let live mentality--if they are not using drugs or urinating in public (both of which I have seen) I just ignore them. But it seems that recently they have decided to invade the gazebo. Today I was jogging the trail around the park (at around 10 am) and the group was in full force drinking and swearing loudly. Luckily my youngest was at pre-school or I would have more upset about their behavior. What can be done about this group as they get closer to the children in the play area?

[Yosemite Joy]

I called the police the last time I went there... in June. A group of people were running around yelling and being drunk and obnoxious. They were also smoking marijuana (which in itself isn't the worst thing in the world, but this is a PARK). The sheriff arrived just as I left. I haven't been back since.

We also had a problem with group home children there. One girl came up and kicked my dog because her pit bull puppy wasn't on a leash and came up to my dog and my dog growled. My dog was on a leash and was just giving warning to strange animal it did not know being around his Mommy (me) and his Children. She screamed at me and kicked my dog and I said something back (something to the affect of "what the hell are you kicking my dog for) and the men/boys in her group stood up and started to come over to me. It was pretty scary.

[jjcheyenne]

I listen to the police scanner daily. Every day the Madera Sheriff is called to the park for people drinking and either fighting or being loud and harrassing people. It seems these last couple of weeks it has gotten worse. I don't know if it is the same people every day, or different people, but it is getting really ridiculas. (parden my spelling) Parks are suppose to be safe for families to enjoy. Maybe they need to hire a full time security officer.

[jakobscalpel]

Or maybe they could finally start arresting people for any one of the numerous violations I see every time we go there. Just a thought. I'd rather subsidize these people's prison stay than their welfare. A couple of quotes from a conversation my wife had yesterday with the eight year old son of one of the vagrants there:
"I just broke up with my girlfriend, the *****"
"My Dad hits my Mom all the time!"
Warms the heart, doesn't it?

It just makes me wish the Ahwahnee Hills park would FINALLY GET WORKED ON AND OPEN! It will be nice to have a park not overrun with scum. And if it does, perhaps we could institute some kind of "Most Dangerous Game" hunting license program to raise money for further park improvements!

[Ironhorse]

People need to start making their complaints to Anderson, and if that doesn't improve the situation, then the complaints need to be made to the Board of Supervisors. The park needs special enforcement, homeless or not, those people should not be allowed to loiter in the park because of the kids that go there, and families. Some of those people have "wandered" across the bridge a couple of times and into the apartment complexes/condo areas across the river.

[Iris]

The objectionable behavior described above is absolutely unacceptable, dangerous, and frightening. I cannot begin to imagine what my reaction would have been if someone kicked my leashed dog for any reason, however your self control was the correct behavior as the situation could have escalated out of control very quickly. I consider myself to be a compassionate and kind person, but I expect my fellow humans to behave responsibly. Often we are dealt a difficult hand to play in life, but we all have choices. The path out of homelessness, addiction, and a dysfunctional life is not an easy one, but one must make an effort if they expect to live in society. As taxpayers, and contributing members of this community, we have a right to expect the ability to enjoy public (and private) areas without enduring these horrid conditions. The longer that these conditions are allowed to continue without appropriate arrests being made, the sooner we can expect things to eventually spiral out of control. If law enforcement has to be contacted numerous times per day, I say so be it. Something must be done before something tragic and possibly deadly occurs!

[Yosemite Joy]

I just went to the park, and it was nice. There were friendly parents and kids, all under the age of four.

There were the vagrants. Nice and quiet drinking their beer. Even quiet you could feel the comfortableness with the other parents.

There were also cigarette butts all over the playground area. I picked up at least a handful (YUCK). And what is up with the vandalism? At least they painted over it a bit.

We so need a security officer or something. Maybe there could be a job in there for some of the C.O.P.S... Something needs to be done about this.

jakob...- crap like that is a horrible thing. And to think and eight year old would tell a stranger this stuff. Makes me wonder if they tell their teachers? Makes me wonder where the adults are around here.

[Yosemite_Wolf]

Who would pay for a security officer? and he can't do squat as we found out at the Blue Heron a few weeks back. The park is public property and needs to be patrolled properly by our elected and hired officals. I.E. the sheriff and his deputies.

[Dodgergirl]

Are you kidding me?

I mean I am surprised at the astonishment of everyone's unawareness here.

For me I have experienced this park atmosphere in the past. I have not been to the park for the last two years because of these incidents. I stopped going when I saw a group that looked like they were addicts, homeless and had attitudes they owned the area. I even thought I saw some guys who may be narcs but turns out they were just part of the group that was becoming harder core. I used to call the Chamber and Sheriff all the time. When I followed up the conclusion I came to was that :

1) One of the main men who regularly hangs out is constantly arrested but has enough money, though he lives at the RV park, homeless to bail himself out with plenty of cases pending. Nice - for us and the unaware tourist who travel through.IT was the Sheriff office who said they continue to arrest him and he continues to bail himself out.

2) It is really apparent to me we don't have enough law enforcement and the infusion of cash to the budget, if ever, is a long time down the road.

3)I still believe crime is not up because of more people coming to our county..it is a combo of issues. Helllo???.... read the news outside of our area, state, country lately...violence, apathy, recklessness is way out of control everywhere and intensifying. Did you hear the recent stories of the beheading of dogs, or kidnap torture of the young women who was black and knew the people or the violent bus bullying of kids and taping of teachers to instigate the teachers.

Our area is susceptible to heavy drug use and all the lifestyle and elements it entails due to lack of available law enforcement and apathy of the community. But still we are no different than any other community.

I mean really..just because we live in a less populated area does not mean we require less awareness, responsibility or accountability. It seems to me as we used to say about people who visit YNP. Those of us who lived there had a saying, " people drive in and check their brains at the gate" . It seems people have a false sense of security or understanding of their surroundings. Crime doesn't only happen in the city...in fact it does happen all the time in rural areas but is not always known for many reasons. Now it is just becoming more apparent. So...... do something about it.

I tried for months to start a neighborhood watch program on a community and local level and the apathy and denial is very strong, alive and working.

4) COP's are well overwhelmed and lack willing, reliable volunteers for the already existing calls and schedules they maintain.The ones who work are taking lots of time from their family's.

5) IN the last 7 years, I see many changes. My quiet neighborhood has gone from uneventful to regular combo mail box vandalism, trash dump vandalism, sign stealing, personal property outside stolen to second story break in that included auto theft. Kids screeching in cars late at night, drunk or other, yelling into the night.

And do you know what outrages me the most:

1)the neighborhood apathy- "Well if you do all the work and set up the meetings and handle all of it I may attend or keep an eye out. I don't really think we have that much of a problem in Oakhurst" or " I don't want to attend regular meetings, we dont really need them or I dont have the time" or "I dont want to report it happening, what if they retaliate?" or " Hearing about it just makes me nervous, so I would rather only go once in a while" or" We can't do anything about it"

2) Madera county judicial system: Overworked and limited Sheriff who took forever to get to the scene of the burglary- break-in. The Madera courts that called us to testify and then cancelled after we took off work .Placed a friend of ours in the same rooms as perps when waiting to testify. Totally mishandles witnesses willing to make a difference.

3) Parents and the athletic dept at the high school. Parents of the kid requested house arrest instead of community service because his kid had sprained his ankle and was starting football this season.

Of course the judge came down hard and angry when stating" He had skipped to highschool without ever graduating 8th grade,has many cases behind and in front of him, and slapped him with house arrest, curfew, community service and financial retribution. However, the parents still use the house to invite the kids and football team.It's the place to be and heaven forbid if we go against the athletic dept and try to hold any of their players accountable. AFter all these kids are doing that much to compromise their football future.

If you want to do something then "Take back the streets" or something. Protest loudly for intolerance of crime and demand changes in law enforcement.

You'll have to start some kind of grass roots thing like they did in the City. Women gathered with many supportive people in masses to march after dark to protest crimes against women.

Otherwise I say...why complain...if you are not willing to do something about it. The lack of involvement or willingness to be involved is what has convince me we live in a lawless, apathetic community in denial of the realty of lack of self responsibility and accountability, and we will into the future have this atmosphere as well as we all will have many guns in our homes and vigilantes willing to do what we are not getting support to have done to keep us all safe.

Leadership, self responsibility and accountability - where are these qualities? I mean when is someone in this town going to show real leadership without their motivation being accolades or personal agendas. I say step up and show us.

Until I see more of this implemented I remind myself constantly of the independence and self responsibility I have to be viligilant to maintain. I will look out for my own.I can't save the world or inspire local involvement but I can and will look out for my own.


For me.... I have put my neck out enough in positive efforts. Some one else can take a turn.My interest and efforts to encourage or inspire are depleted. Hmmmm maybe that is why there is so much apathy around here.......people get tired of trying.

Why don't YOU go do something about it?



It's kinda interesting, I never said I was unaware of the situation at the Park, I just started this thread describing a day there... I, for one would never let them 'chase me out' or become so intimidated that I didn't go to the Park anymore because of the actions of others...

As for your thread it goes off in many directions not intended for this particular thread, but I will try to respond point by point and then possibly we can get back on topic...

As for your conclusions, the man who keeps getting arrested and bailing himself out? Hmmm, possibly there should be a psych hold on him to evaluate why he demonstrates this self destructive behavior. Possibly it's a cry for help that is being missed by the authorities. I'm going to discuss this with an officer friend when next we meet. It would be much better to have him detained and evaluated for mental fitness so we don't have another incident like we've had in the past with a person asking for help and being turned away.

No, we don't have enough Law enforcement. Some say we will have more if we incorporate.

Me, I have to believe that the more people a place has, the more it's statistics will go up. When I first moved here I was astonished to see the amount of people with cancerous diseases. I couldn't understand why 'so many people' were sick... then, after consideration, I realized the percentage was that of the bigger cities, just more concentrated here because of the 'family atmosphere'. I believe the same goes for crime, and also, a story in the Sierra Star yesterday explains about the local mentality of people believing we have no theft or gang issues to deal with. We all know better than that.

As for the heavy drug use and all that particular lifestyle typically entails, that again is statistical. But there is a point that should be remembered with caution... As the weather changes, the 'day job' type employment for this population will drop and they will be looking for ways to make a living. Whether said living is for a home or for drugs isn't the point, but the fact that people become more desperate for heat & food when it's colder will cause them to do more daring things.

I am lucky to live in an area which has neighbors who watch out for one another. Even though it was used against my own son a few months ago (something he brought on himself), I am still happy to know my neighbors take care of each other. (I think he's learned a lot in the past few months, but that's a different thread)

It's sad that your neighbors don't want to get involved. It's usually the ones that have something happen, then they decide to 'do something about it'. Sometimes if they did something before the issue, the problem may not have had the opportunity to manifest.

Madera County Judicial System is indeed overloaded, it needs to have branch courts in local areas. While I spent my summer there, most of the kids were from the Chowchilla area. If there were smaller satellite courts, possibly the DA's office and judge would not be so overwhelmed with cases. Yes, the victims and accused are in the same waiting area at Madera Juvenile court, and it was weird for most.

Parents and the Athletic dept..., well, thats two complete entities. The Athletic Dept has one thing on it's mind, winning. I don't believe they actually have our children's education or moral upbringing first and foremost. (but thats a whole 'nother thread, too.., and it would be an interesting one)

Parents can request one form of punishment or another, but the DA will argue it if it's not appropriate and the judge will not allow it if there is a reason they believe it won't be in the best interest of the minor. The judge in our case was hard, but never raised her voice and he received the same thing... house arrest, curfew (after the HA was completed), community service and financial retribution.

The House Arrest contract (signed by both minor and parent) clearly states "I understand I cannot have friends visit me at my home while on house arrest". If these parents are clearly breaking the contract, do something and call the Probation Dept., or better yet, take a picture of the offense and send it to the judge... I told my son (and he knew it was true) that the neighbors were watching his behaviors and they would do the same.

As for the original situation, as stated in the original post, the Chamber has a petition circulating to bring more patrols to the park. Maybe incorporation would be the start of a solution... possibly not.

My intent is not to have this particular group kicked out of the park, nor to have permit required everytime you want to have an alcoholic beverage at the park. Could you imagine having to request a permit for a picnic and bottle of wine at sunset or you're violating the law? I have no desire to live in a Police State.

Personally, I have way too much on my plate to even think about stepping up for something like this and it's not my way to do something half way. Possibly someone on these forums has a solution that could be implemented in a positive manner.

[Ironhorse]

One partial possible solution to this particular problem, one that would give the Sheriff more "teeth" in the arrests, is that in some cities, like the City of Madera, alcohol is banned from the majority of the parks, period. There is only one park that I remember (Rotary Park) where it is allowed and then only in a fenced in pavilion area. Might be worth taking a look at for this park, especially in view of how cut off from view it can be at times with the rushes growing up between it and the parking area. Myself, and it's just my opinion, I don't believe in allowing alcohol at a park where there are kids like this one has, there always seems to be at least one jerk who drinks too much and shows the kids how "intelligent" they can be with their brain on an overload of booze. (okay, so maybe THAT's not all bad) Or they get boozed up enough to prove they are the "biggest dog in the park" attitude. And like has been said, people NEED to be willing to report the problem, not look the other way, but then again "vigilante justice" isn't the answer either. Just a thought. JMO

[Ironhorse]

Posted by cattledoggiemon:

"As far as my neighbors doing something in advance to prevent the recent burglaries, auto theft and vandalism. What more could they of done besides lock their doors and windows, keep their dogs around and an eye out for suspicious activity? IT's hard to protect your personal property when people who know we are all on 2-3 acres pick out homes that are less visible, watch because they have nothing else better to do with their time and hit the homes when we are gone."

I think your last few sentences indicate at least part of the problem. There is a tendency for some homeowners to not have their homes easily visible from the road, or so neighbors can see it. It's the "privacy" issue, and while that all great and good, the reality is that it makes the homes more vulnerable to burglaries and vandalisms. The brush, trees, what have you should be cleared away enough that the house can be seen from the road. Alarm systems are a must, no matter where you live, whether city or the foothills, so that your home is less vulnerable when you are not home. Also on the homes that are on large lots or acreage, motion sensor type lights should be placed in the yard, all around the house to help eliminate those dark places burglars so love to lurk in. Dogs are also a good idea, good dogs that bark at intruders (even little yappers are better than nothing). Some people on the board have even gone so far as to install cameras along with their alarm systems. But again, that's as applicable here as it is in the cities. Yes, Oakhurst does have crime; No, not as much as in the bigger cities; and no matter if you live in Oakhurst, Fresno, L.A, wherever, there will be people who watch for patterns, watch for people to leave their homes and then strike when you are most vulnerable. For the majority of people, the "vigilante justice" you spoke of in one of your posts is a major mistake. Those people who arm themselves with a gun don't know how to use it, won't use it, will panic if they try to use it, and/or will either seriously hurt themselves or do something that causes the weapon to be used against them by the suspect. Additionally, if the gun is left in the house and taken during a burglary, it puts one more weapon on the streets. (far too few people secure their weapons in a gun safe because they want "quick access to it in case of a burglary"). The term vigilante justice itself indicates a frame of mind that is scary, because a person using vigilante justice INTENDS on using force, lethal many times, to "protect" their property. The person they use that lethal force against could be a stupid kid, being stupid because of peer pressure. Smart kids, kids with money and from a good background, do stupid stuff at times, sometimes from boredom, sometimes from peer pressure. I would hate to see one of them involved in a situation where vigilante justice was used against them, over say a vandalism or stereo theft. I'll leave it at, go ahead, encourage people to be involved, encourage them to watch out for each other, but DON'T advocate or encourage vigilante justice. JMO

[SlimeMold]

Posted by cattledoggiemon:
For the majority of people, the "vigilante justice" you spoke of in one of your posts is a major mistake. Those people who arm themselves with a gun don't know how to use it, won't use it, will panic if they try to use it, and/or will either seriously hurt themselves or do something that causes the weapon to be used against them by the suspect. JMO

I always trying to tell people, who are planning on purchasing a gun for sef-defense, to (1) Learn how to use it properly, (2) Clean it regularly, (3) Practice with it on a regular basis, (4) Hesitation could cost you your life and you must make many decisions in a split second, (5) Make sure the person is an intruder and not a loved one and (6) Realize that shooting a person is different than shooting a paper target. I am sure that other points could be added.

[Dodgergirl]

I still wanna keep this on the original thought, but since the topic keeps digressing, may I say a few more details?

Blaming the parents is not always the thing to do, as Ironhorse stated, kids from all walks of life do stupid things and for stupid reasons. The blame should be laid upon the parents when they chose to cover for said children. Do you have any idea how hard it was to stand before the judge and ask that my son be kept incarcerated? Then, after a month, ask to have him on house arrest because I could not watch him 24/7? Why? Because I'm a single mom, and gotta work... two jobs..., so that makes me a bad parent because I'm not home, or that makes me a bad parent because I was asleep when he & his friends were held at gunpoint? Nah, I was sleeping, something I try to fit in every now & then, and especially at 1 am on a Friday night...The neighbor who bashed my son's jaw with a shotgun? I actually thanked him for using the butt end... My son? well, it's been 4 months now & he's doing well, both at school and at home..., but not without the constant help of neighbors..., those same people he hurt have all (well, except for one lady who had nothing to do with it, she just likes the drama) come together to help him out. Even the persons house he went into (there was no one home) stood up in court for him. Oh, and he's been off HA for awhile now, so it is his choice to be responsible.

The blame part comes in when the parents lie or work the system to their child's advantage. All they are teaching their child to do is be a criminal, an upstanding, athletic criminal, but a criminal nonetheless... I had many opportunities to take him to the Lake or a movie while he was on HA, but he basically went to court and home. Yeah, we stopped at a store or for a quick burger on the way home (an hour's drive away), but nothing fancy, no side trips. He didn't see the Lake all summer. That was a choice he made way back in May...

As for the park people, I've wondered if this is the same group camping in the area behind the schools, along the river. It's hard to be out on the track at OCI and have 12-13 year olds come running up telling you there are people 'swimming' in the creek. The school has tried to move them, the problem has been widely reported..., but it still exists.

I grew up in L.A. and have seen my share of homeless and their issues, I have worked with them, as i have with addicts and abusers. It is true that you cannot change someone who doesn't want to change. It's all about personal responsibility and accountability, whether you are 15 or an adult camping in a Park. If these people have mental health issues, it is the responsibility of the County to have them placed where they cannot harm themselves or others. I still have vivid memories of seeing a young friend lying in his casket after an encounter with a mentally unstable person.

So, we can go back and forth with "this needs to be done', 'this can't be done because..' etc., does anyone have any concrete ideas of where to start or the beginnings of a plan? I would be willing to fit in a couple hours or so a week to start something rolling on this, but I can't offer much more than that..., (well, not until I become independently wealthy again)...

[Michelle]

Dodge after reading what you just wrote I want to say that I am proud of you for taking charge and making a hard choice to see what is going to keep your son from doing any more bad things. Those choices are hard to make when it is easy to blame someone or something else then showing responsibility on your child. No you cannot watch him 24/7 because you have to live and eat and have a roof over your head and you dont' have the choice of being a stay at home mother like some. But it is a step closer to keeping your son safe and people around you and yourself. from one mother to another I am proud of what you have done for your son. it is always easy to just give up and you don't .. you are a strong woman/mother.

as for the park. it is sad that people can't always enjoy the nice things and it is sad that the homeless let alone there are homeless people or other people have to ruin that enjoyment.yes we as a community have to stay together and take charge but there is a time and place for the law to come in and take control the best they can. sadly enough it just doesn't seem like it is enough.

[Dodgergirl]

Dodge after reading what you just wrote I want to say that I am proud of you for taking charge and making a hard choice to see what is going to keep your son from doing any more bad things. Those choices are hard to make when it is easy to blame someone or something else then showing responsibility on your child. No you cannot watch him 24/7 because you have to live and eat and have a roof over your head and you dont' have the choice of being a stay at home mother like some. But it is a step closer to keeping your son safe and people around you and yourself. from one mother to another I am proud of what you have done for your son. it is always easy to just give up and you don't .. you are a strong woman/mother.

as for the park. it is sad that people can't always enjoy the nice things and it is sad that the homeless let alone there are homeless people or other people have to ruin that enjoyment.yes we as a community have to stay together and take charge but there is a time and place for the law to come in and take control the best they can. sadly enough it just doesn't seem like it is enough.

Honestly it killed me everytime I saw him in chains in the courtroom. I was ready to say anything to keep him out, but knew I couldn't, or face the possibility of visiting him for the rest of his life in one institution or another. I thank my daughter, who was with me through this and Sandman, who spent many sleepless nights talking me through this entire thing. I haven't yet written too much publicly about it because I'm still sorting it all out. There were so many different aspects, so many things I learned about the Judicial system, my friends, my family, and most of all, myself this summer.

[Yosemite_Wolf]

It is a sad thing if it comes down to prohibiting alcohol from parks.. imagine trying to have a romantic picnic.... with out being able to enjoy a vintage bottle of wine... not that wine needs to be part of a romantic picnic.. but it sure is a nice relaxing thing. This experience with the parks happened in San Luis Obispo back in 1985/86...... they wanted to ban booze from all parks.. because the "homeless" were hopping off of the trains and imbiding in booze in the parks.. come on! when was the last time you saw "hobos" on the train?? LOL.

[Ironhorse]

It is a sad thing if it comes down to prohibiting alcohol from parks.. imagine trying to have a romantic picnic.... with out being able to enjoy a vintage bottle of wine... not that wine needs to be part of a romantic picnic.. but it sure is a nice relaxing thing. This experience with the parks happened in San Luis Obispo back in 1985/86...... they wanted to ban booze from all parks.. because the "homeless" were hopping off of the trains and imbiding in booze in the parks.. come on! when was the last time you saw "hobos" on the train?? LOL.


I know it's a bit extreme, but again, it was used in Madera as an added tool for the police to use to take care of problem people. If you caught them with booze, they got cited and sent on their way, or if they were "drunk" they were put in a car and transported to the drunk tank at the jail to sleep it off. Better than having them urinating in front of kids, fighting, etc., or trying to intimidate a person into giving them money for their next bottle of booze.

The solution isn't just one thing, like homeless shelters. You have some who will refuse to use those shelters, sometimes because they have mental problems, but according to the "law", when evaluated, the mental problems may not be serious enough to forcibly put them somewhere where they can "get help". The problem right now is focusing on the homeless (to a large extent in this thread), but I've been there when teens are drinking and rabble rousing too, and/or adults, or what was probably people passing through. Because of the diversity of the "problem children", there MUST be a diversity of ways in handling whatever problems surface. Forcing parents to come pick up their kids/teens from the Sheriff's office if their kids/teens are causing problems is one way, a homeless shelter might work, banning alcohol and gambling from the park, increased patrols, and other ways that I haven't thought of I'm sure, that someone else will think of. The problem/cause can't be narrowed down to one cause, just as the solution won't be the same in every instance.

COPP's is fine and dandy, but COPP's have no arrest powers, and in my experience, because of the potential dangers of confrontation with a drinker, boozer, druggie, metally unbalanced, or just general dirtbag, they are NOT encourage to "hold" someone until the SO is able to get there. They are the eyes of the local law enforcement, not the enforcers.

[Mysteefied]

I'm actually pretty surprised that I have not had any of these types of things happen while I've been at the park, I've lived in Oakhurst for 7 years and been to the park countless times and happy to say, I never had a problem.

I don't go much anymore, mostly because my kids are older now. maybe that's why. Is this a more recen't thing that has been going on?

Maybe I'm just totally oblivious to my surroundings? LOL ...actually, that's quite possibly it.

Is there a certain time of the day when these folks are hanging around or is it all day long?

Just wondering

[Ironhorse]

Myself, I've seen them in the evenings Mysteefied. I don't go there much, sometimes just go looking for a quiet place where I'm not boxed in on a patio, LOL, to sit outside in nice weather. Have seen a couple of "stumble bums" wonder over the bridge from the park after dark.

[Yosemite Joy]

I'm actually pretty surprised that I have not had any of these types of things happen while I've been at the park, I've lived in Oakhurst for 7 years and been to the park countless times and happy to say, I never had a problem.

I don't go much anymore, mostly because my kids are older now. maybe that's why. Is this a more recen't thing that has been going on?

Maybe I'm just totally oblivious to my surroundings? LOL ...actually, that's quite possibly it.

Is there a certain time of the day when these folks are hanging around or is it all day long?

Just wondering

I don't know how long this has been going on. At least since 2003 when I returned here from other states/cities/boats... ha.
They are there all, all, ALL day. No matter if I go there in early morning hours before heat, or late in the eve or sometime in the middle, they are there. The guy with the dog. The infamous homeless man. The other vagabonds and even some teenage looking kids. Always drinking, shooting the bull, flying kites..

When I was in high school the teens used to go to the park and yes, there were some older people around who may have been homeless. But mostly it was kids of all ages, and parents.

If I didn't have a bazillion children and responsibilities I would love to be some sort of watchdog for the park. I would sign any petition in favour for this, and do just about anything, including donating towards this cause (of security) for where our children play. They are able to get the homeless out of the park when they have activities going on for the weekend (you will spot the group outside the park by where the pay phone and bathrooms used to be), so why not during the days there are no fund raising or whatnot functions going on?

[SlimeMold]

Dodgergirl, I applaud you for taking responsibility for your son. I am also pleased that you have caring neighbors that are supportive. I hope that whatever your son did that he had the you know what scared out of him by the actions of you and the courts.

Now a few other comments I have on the direction this thread has taken.

I grew up in the L.A. area, lived in Washington DC, the San Francisco area and in Karlsruhe, Germany. All of these cities had homeless people, some wanted someone to help them get back on their feet again and lead a productive life, others sadly, just wanted handouts. Not easy to tell the difference at times.

Some of the people with Mental Health issues on the street aren't able to get the treatment needed to give them the chance to get back on the workforce, because they do not know where to turn, or the county may just keep them for 72 hours or less just long enough to determine whether or not they are an immediate threat to themselves or others, and others may be able to get the treatment, but are left homeless due to the amout of disability payments that are given to a person.

It's tough out there for some...I've talked with people on both sides as recently as tonight.

[jakobscalpel]

There have been good thoughts on this thread. People obviously dislike the current state of the park and have some ideas for change. I fall squarely in the "I don't care enough to sacrifice my limited time" population so I'll do that most American of activities and talk about something I don't plan to act on.

Main problem:

Geography. Look at this http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&geocode=&q=oakhurst,+ca&ie=UTF8&ll=37.330067,-119.65394&spn=0.002269,0.005729&t=k&z=18&om=1

This would be great terrain if we were an army advancing on the vagrant enemy from the south. We could drive them into the river with ease (after, of course, first destroying the two bridges). It is awful terrain for policing. It is like the dank back hallway in your high school where everyone went to smoke between classes. A very public, inaccessible place to do illegal things.

What the problem is not:
Need for homeless shelters
Legal alcohol consumption in public (I don't know the actual law on this but it wouldn't matter)
Lack of sheriffs

How to solve the geography problem:
1. Cut down all the trees to maximize sight lines and sunburn pain
2. Put a road around the entire park perimeter with access from 426 via a new bridge
3. Fill in the Fresno River and make the entire park a swamp, which would discourage long term vagrancy due to malaria/dengue fever/cholera attrition.

Not many good options that I can envision.

Non-Geography based solutions:
1. Public humiliation - People arrested in the park are put in stockades in front of Vons or Raleys (depending on your shopping preference)
2. Incorporation - The Town of Oakhurst would be able to pass Orwellian laws regarding the park, like preventing any male over 12 years of age not accompanying children from sitting in one place for more than an hour or hold an alcoholic beverage. Failure to comply could result in item #1.
3. Reverse Punishment. Give the vagrants money each time they are arrested or warned. At some point they will acquire enough money to spontaneously become more conservative, frown upon people who are less fortunate than they are, pray for a Fed Rate cut, and occasionally fret about their expanding middle age waistline. They will acquire a house, wife, kids, and a big screen TV for their 8 hours of daily TV viewing. There is very little room in the list above for sitting around a park appearing as a somewhat vague but very real threat to ladies and gentleman taking their kids to the public park for some relaxing fun.

[Mysteefied]

jakobscalpel... I really enjoy your vivid imagination! Thank you. :lol:

[Iris]

There have been good thoughts on this thread. People obviously dislike the current state of the park and have some ideas for change. I fall squarely in the "I don't care enough to sacrifice my limited time" population so I'll do that most American of activities and talk about something I don't plan to act on.

Main problem:

Geography. Look at this http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&geocode=&q=oakhurst,+ca&ie=UTF8&ll=37.330067,-119.65394&spn=0.002269,0.005729&t=k&z=18&om=1

This would be great terrain if we were an army advancing on the vagrant enemy from the south. We could drive them into the river with ease (after, of course, first destroying the two bridges). It is awful terrain for policing. It is like the dank back hallway in your high school where everyone went to smoke between classes. A very public, inaccessible place to do illegal things.

What the problem is not:
Need for homeless shelters
Legal alcohol consumption in public (I don't know the actual law on this but it wouldn't matter)
Lack of sheriffs

How to solve the geography problem:
1. Cut down all the trees to maximize sight lines and sunburn pain
2. Put a road around the entire park perimeter with access from 426 via a new bridge
3. Fill in the Fresno River and make the entire park a swamp, which would discourage long term vagrancy due to malaria/dengue fever/cholera attrition.

Not many good options that I can envision.

Non-Geography based solutions:
1. Public humiliation - People arrested in the park are put in stockades in front of Vons or Raleys (depending on your shopping preference)
2. Incorporation - The Town of Oakhurst would be able to pass Orwellian laws regarding the park, like preventing any male over 12 years of age not accompanying children from sitting in one place for more than an hour or hold an alcoholic beverage. Failure to comply could result in item #1.
3. Reverse Punishment. Give the vagrants money each time they are arrested or warned. At some point they will acquire enough money to spontaneously become more conservative, frown upon people who are less fortunate than they are, pray for a Fed Rate cut, and occasionally fret about their expanding middle age waistline. They will acquire a house, wife, kids, and a big screen TV for their 8 hours of daily TV viewing. There is very little room in the list above for sitting around a park appearing as a somewhat vague but very real threat to ladies and gentleman taking their kids to the public park for some relaxing fun.

Enjoyed your post. Somewhat reminiscent of Swift's "A Modest Proposal". Well done!