Should we have national health care?

[Yosemite Joy]

Is health care a right for all people? Is health care something we should be guaranteed to, without putting money up front (uninsured persons are often told to pay upfront for critical surgeries, etc). How much do you pay in health care costs every month? Why aren't the insurance companies non-profit anymore?

[jakobscalpel]

I would say no, health care is not a right. Since it is called the medical "profession" and not the medical "charity", doctors/hospitals/etc should expect compensation for their effort and expertise. If someone is not able to pay they should not receive the benefits and should not be sponsored by the government.

No doubt medical costs are out of control, but IMO they are high for the same reason housing costs are high. There is an artificial high bid under all medical costs due to both the lunacy of the current medical insurance landscape and our insistence at using spectacular lengths to save/extend every life. Just like the housing boom was caused by people feeling they could pay whatever they wanted because of the silly available loans, medical costs are high because they get passed on to the insurance companies, insulating the patient. The patient, of course, feels every right to spend as much of the insurance company's money as they can in order to use the latest and greatest surgery or drug. In reality, most people couldn't (I know I couldn't) afford the high end medical care many people access when very ill or near the end of their lives.

There is the rub. Medical costs are high because patients don't have to pay. Insurance and our sense of entitlement society create an artificially high demand, which always leads to a higher price. I don't like paying higher taxes to support other's sense of entitlement. I would not nationalize health care. Instead, remove the price props and let the market take over.

[Yosemite Joy]

I would say no, health care is not a right. Since it is called the medical "profession" and not the medical "charity", doctors/hospitals/etc should expect compensation for their effort and expertise. If someone is not able to pay they should not receive the benefits and should not be sponsored by the government.

No one said "charity". I was speaking of having government/us pay for national health care. I didn't mean to imply that the doctors/hospitals work for free. Of the thirty-six industrialised democracies we are the only that do not have health coverage as a right.
Under your thoughts anyone who is not able to pay should not receive the benefits of getting health care? That is absurd to me.



No doubt medical costs are out of control, but IMO they are high for the same reason housing costs are high. There is an artificial high bid under all medical costs due to both the lunacy of the current medical insurance landscape and our insistence at using spectacular lengths to save/extend every life. Just like the housing boom was caused by people feeling they could pay whatever they wanted because of the silly available loans, medical costs are high because they get passed on to the insurance companies, insulating the patient. The patient, of course, feels every right to spend as much of the insurance company's money as they can in order to use the latest and greatest surgery or drug. In reality, most people couldn't (I know I couldn't) afford the high end medical care many people access when very ill or near the end of their lives.


Please. We spend 16% of our GDP on health care. And it is getting worse. 16% is more than we spend on national defense. http://www.nchc.org/facts/cost.shtml

As for medical costs being high because they are passed on to insurance companies...
http://www.nationalcenter.org/LB30.html
Some look to the doctor's office or the hospital or their medicine cabinet, but few think to look to the courtroom.

Increasingly, civil cases - including frivolous lawsuits and massive class actions - are driving up health care costs and making Americans less healthy.

Unfounded lawsuits and excessive malpractice and liability awards not only boost health care costs, but also raise the price of insurance for health care providers and patients. As premiums increase, increasing numbers of people are unable to afford the cost of insurance.

According to Sickoflawsuits.org, nearly 41 million Americans are now uninsured and, a given year, another 30 million will lack coverage for some extended period of time.

People who lack insurance coverage are less likely to seek treatment. Those who do seek treatment while uninsured are much more likely to seek care in emergency rooms, thus driving the cost of medicine even higher. A vicious cycle emerges.

Patients who are wrongly injured or mistreated by health care providers should -- of course -- have recourse to the courts, but even objective observers agree that the situation has gotten out of hand.

As the Washington Post has editorialized: "As to the right to sue, our preference is to keep the practice of medicine as far from the courts and the predatory instincts of some of the trial bar as possible... the threat of a lawsuit should not be what governs health care in this country."

Over the past 20 years, personal injury lawyers have found litigation against health care providers and pharmaceutical manufacturers to be a lucrative "growth area." This has enriched a handful of lawyers, but adversely affected both the quality and cost of care for the rest of us, as the cost of defending against malpractice and liability lawsuits is inevitably passed on to the consumer.


--and thus doctors order more tests, more hospitalizations, more of everything to prevent getting sued.. and the insurance has to pay more, which gets handed down to the consumer..




There is the rub. Medical costs are high because patients don't have to pay. Insurance and our sense of entitlement society create an artificially high demand, which always leads to a higher price. I don't like paying higher taxes to support other's sense of entitlement. I would not nationalize health care. Instead, remove the price props and let the market take over.

Right... so the insurance companies make nothing because of all of our entitlement. Check the stock prices for the last five years. Please, we (my middle class family) pays over four hundred dollars a month for an employee sponsored insurance company. Yet, I receive bills for hundreds, thousands more for expenditures from the insurance for "uncovered" or "co-pay" for hospital and doctor visits. Not to mention the costs of pharmaceuticals.

Instead of paying the corporation big cats my money, which in turn they use to lobby more healthcare bills and incentives to make more money, why not make a non-profit insurance (much like medicare).

It makes economic sense. http://www.pnhp.org/publications/executive_summary_of_the_united_states_national_he alth_insurance_act_hr676.php

[mary oleary]

Is health care a right for all people? Is health care something we should be guaranteed to, without putting money up front (uninsured persons are often told to pay upfront for critical surgeries, etc). How much do you pay in health care costs every month? Why aren't the insurance companies non-profit anymore?

When were insurance companies ever non-profit? Insurance companies are not altruistic! They exist for profit, they risk insuring you betting that they will make more money on your money than they will pay for your claims. No profit= no underwiters= no insurance.

When was health care ever non-profit for that matter?

Would I like to see everyone have healthy lives and doctors care whenever needed? yes! Do want my income to pay for everyone else? not really.



Should I have to pay for Joe Deadbeat to have a liver transplant because he spends all of his welfare money on booze?

[Yosemite_Wolf]

National health care is not the right answer... but to make it profitable for small businesses to give insurance to employees is the answer. vote for Ron Paul and we will get the insurance that we all need!!! He may be running as a Elephant.. but he is Libertarian at heart!!!

[Yosemite Joy]

When were insurance companies ever non-profit? Insurance companies are not altruistic! They exist for profit, they risk insuring you betting that they will make more money on your money than they will pay for your claims. No profit= no underwiters= no insurance.

When was health care ever non-profit for that matter?

Would I like to see everyone have healthy lives and doctors care whenever needed? yes! Do want my income to pay for everyone else? not really.



Should I have to pay for Joe Deadbeat to have a liver transplant because he spends all of his welfare money on booze?

I already replied but lost my post.. oops.

Blue Cross and Blue Shield began as non profit. Most states before the 1980's had laws requiring that hospitals and insurance companies be nonprofit, so that anyone who came for help received help.

Your income already pays for Medicare, social security and other things that other people use.

[monkey]

Should I have to pay for Joe Deadbeat to have a liver transplant because he spends all of his welfare money on booze?[/QUOTE]

When my husband was getting radiation treatments for his cancer, I would sit in the office and wait. Almost every time, there would be a prisoner brought in in handcuffs who was given treatments at the taxpayers expense. We have Blue Cross and still had to pay out a lot of money to get the life saving treatments my husband needed. We used to joke that he should hold up a 7-11 and he could get the treatments free, but it still pisses me off.

[jakobscalpel]

Under your thoughts anyone who is not able to pay should not receive the benefits of getting health care? That is absurd to me.
Obviously :)

As to the rest of your post, the point about litigation is a good one. I didn't address that and it is big issue, no doubt. However, I stand by the rest of what I said. People who can't get insurance now or have to pay insanely large amounts for it is just a symptom of the original cause; Too much demand for too limited a product with no way to reduce the demand because of a sense of entitlement. Having the federal or state government pay even more just reinforces all the bad parts of the current system. The only way to fix it is to let it crash and rebuild. No one is pretending this will be done without pain.

[David_V]

Is health care a right for all people? Is health care something we should be guaranteed to, without putting money up front (uninsured persons are often told to pay upfront for critical surgeries, etc). How much do you pay in health care costs every month? Why aren't the insurance companies non-profit anymore?
I wouldn't call it a "right" but it is something that most civilized countries provide for their citizens. We're the only developed country that does not. I don't pay any health care costs, I get it free at the Veterans Hospital in Fresno. I have no health insurance. They never were. They have always made huge profits.

[Yosemite_Wolf]

and on the other hand, ALOT of people who need treatment, radiation, chemotheraphy etc etc etc can't get what they need b/c they don't have insurance, the right insurance or enough of it. It is not always Joe Deadbeat looking for a new liver cos he drank his old one to death. I am a nurse and when I take care of patients I do not look at what their insurance is. We need medical insurance for everyone. In a way, it is a right, a right to good health. One needs to take care of one's self and by doing such, one needs to visit with a doctor at least once a year. That is not an earned right. There are way too many people out there today working their butts off and yet have no insurance. And what about the poor souls who worked for years and years and then their company packed up and moved production to China, Mexico, etc etc.... they are now jobless with no insurance.

[beautiful_mess38]

We have Cigna. We pay $575. a month for the 5 of us. There is a $1000. deductable for each of us. It's 80/20. However; we can go out of the country and Cigna covers 100% with no deductable go figure. It's only medical, no dental or vision. Rick received a letter that the ins. company will change. Don't know which one but, it will be around $700. a month.
I feel like b*tching and complaining but, then I say to myself it's better then no insurance.

[Yosemite_Wolf]

yeah and they wont even approve your knee surgery. I feel lucky cos I have insurance thru work.... and it has good coverage. My deductable is 400 dollars..... and preventable medical stuff..i.e. pap smears, mammograms etc are free!! Dental and vision are included. So, yes, I feel damn lucky! I get a set amount of money each month to "spend" on medical.... and in the end I pay 4 bucks a paycheck for the extra costs. I also have a Health Care Reimbursement account... which is pre tax and so I just flash my Medical VisaCheckCard and voila, stuff is paid for. (They deduct 1500 dollars a year from my paychecks pre-tax. )

I am a full supporter of Healthy Families (sorta like Medi-cal, but for people who make up to a certain amount a year. )

[MadScot]

The entire insurance industry is a leech on humanity. It makes me want to puke when I hear the same people who espouse such righteous opinions on right to life and the next day defend our medical and insurance systems.

http://abclocal.go.com/kabc/story?section=news/local&id=5848163

CIGNA Insurance Company initially refused to cover the cost of the transplant for Natalee Sarkisian, saying the surgery was too experimental.
On Thursday, friends, family and members of a nurses association held a protest outside CIGNA headquarters in Glendale, urging the insurance company to reconsider.
During the protest, Natalee's mother got word CIGNA had changed its mind and would make an exception for Natalee's surgery.
But the decision came too late for Natalee. Just after six o'clock tonight, her condition worsened.
Natalee's family took her off life support and she passed away.




In 1884 Supreme Court Justice Stephen Johnson Field wrote this.
Among these inalienable rights, as proclaimed in that great document, is the right of men to pursue their happiness, by which is meant the right to pursue any lawful business or vocation, in any manner not inconsistent with the equal rights of others, which may increase their prosperity or develop their faculties, so as to give to them their highest enjoyment.

This ruling has been the foundation for many laws regarding the inability of companies to discriminate against those with disabilities. Similarly those with chronic health issues whom can not get insurance due to preexisting conditions are not being allowed to pursue their vocation in an equitable manner consistent with their coworkers. Even the right to life itself is being ignored as witnessed above. If the government refuses to mandate that these people be provided complete coverge at equal cost the burden to provide health care then falls upon the government themselves.

[jakobscalpel]

This ruling has been the foundation for many laws regarding the inability of companies to discriminate against those with disabilities. Similarly those with chronic health issues whom can not get insurance due to preexisting conditions are not being allowed to pursue their vocation in an equitable manner consistent with their coworkers. Even the right to life itself is being ignored as witnessed above. If the government refuses to mandate that these people be provided complete coverge at equal cost the burden to provide health care then falls upon the government themselves.

Well said. So let's follow this through. The gov't assumes the burden of additional (in fact, guaranteed) risk that equal coverage at equal cost for any and all persons entails. This additional cost is financed via short term treasury notes at ~4%. This is a direct liability against either gov't owned lands, assets, or cash flow. Since cash flow is the most distributed source and easiest to change, our taxes rise. The healthy, who are already overpaying for their insurance (they never go to the doctor but carry insurance anyway), are now paying again, in taxes. They are funding those who incur a disproportionate amount of the costs. "You should be grateful for your good health," says the government, "and you should pay for it."

Sorry, but this socialistic junk doesn't cut it. The current system doesn't cut it either. Let the system fail and rebuild. Don't support another bail out of another bad system.

[MadScot]

So your saying our Constitution and Bill of Rights is socialist junk?