CA Proposition 8: Eliminates Rights Of Same-Sex Couples To Marry

[Red Mule]

I have seen several ads recently that have been ratcheting up their nonsense reasons for trying to overturn the gay marriage court decision. Among their reasons is this is somehow an attack on their fundamentalist Christian values. They just can't stand it that someone else might be allowed to make different decisions.

The latest ad I saw claimed that unless we passed Prop 8, teachers would start teaching our kids to be gay in the schools. Even if you accepted their basic premise that this law has anything at all to do with what our schools teach, I can promise from personal experience that none of our teachers would even consider this.

It's not against the law for adults to live together in a gay lifestyle so exactly what do they really want us to vote against? I'm not a lawyer, but I'm pretty sure a gay couple can give each other power's of attorney to handle their affairs and can leave each other their belongings in a will. I know there are churches that will perform gay marriages for people that wish a religious ceremony, even before this court ruling. So, I don't understand why this is such a big deal to the right wing.

Is it really about money? Maybe about insurance coverage? Is it because they don't want gay partners to be able to visit a dying or sick loved one? I just don't get it!

[Yosemite Joy]

Fiction: A Massachusetts case about a parent's objection to the school curriculum will happen here.

Fact: Unlike Massachusetts, California gives parents an absolute right to remove their kids and opt-out of teaching on health and family instruction they don't agree with. The opponents know that California law already covers this and Prop 8 won't affect it, so they bring up an irrelevant case in Massachusetts.


If you have your sample ballot, you can read the proposition in it's entirety.

[Dodgergirl]

As a Christian and a Teacher, (oh, and one of my best friends is gay) I gotta say that I am for any marriage between two people (I'm still not convinced about plural marriages, although they appear to work for some) who want that lifestyle.
I cannot fathom where teaching gay marriage would fit into the curriculum, as currently we do not have enough time to teach the basic curriculum mandated upon us by the state.
I cannot understand where this push is coming from either, or what is value would be in the end? Someone has got to be making some $$ somehow....
But, honestly, if a teenager comes up to me (as one in particular did in the recent past regarding his sexuality) and asks for counseling (in any subject, religion, sexuality, abuse, etc.) I will talk to them, give them real life examples and help them sort it out or find someone more qualified to help them with their dilemma.

[kellieflan]

I saw a T-Shirt that said, :cool:

"Straight People, if you let us marry each other, we will stop marrying you!"

I am so glad to hear you are all (so far so good) inclusive, it's an important value to me and to my friends and I am glad to hear you share that value.

[Red Mule]

I'm still waiting for some kind of explanation about Prop 8. I understand many people don't agree with anyone being gay for religious or other reasons. I'm not gay, just because I find the opposite sex is so interesting. But nobody is asking anyone to BE gay that doesn't want to be. Just to let gay people to have the same rights as those that aren't.

If there is a real fear that schools will suddenly start teaching the gay lifestyle to our children, as the ads warn, why not just pass a law against teaching about the gay lifestyle in schools? The last poll I saw said the majority of those polled are ready to vote for Prop 8.

I just don't understand why. Just who does it hurt if gay people marry?

[Mysteefied]

That's a good questions...I wonder the same thing....what does it have to do with me or my children or family if a gay couple gets married? I am not ahamed to share that I voted NO on 8!

I'm still waiting for some kind of explanation about Prop 8. I understand many people don't agree with anyone being gay for religious or other reasons. I'm not gay, just because I find the opposite sex is so interesting. But nobody is asking anyone to BE gay that doesn't want to be. Just to let gay people to have the same rights as those that aren't.

If there is a real fear that schools will suddenly start teaching the gay lifestyle to our children, as the ads warn, why not just pass a law against teaching about the gay lifestyle in schools? The last poll I saw said the majority of those polled are ready to vote for Prop 8.

I just don't understand why. Just who does it hurt if gay people marry?

[only1alphafemale]

I cant shed any light on Prop 8 Redmule, but I want to share what I heard on a talk show, just before last Christmas. I was coming home from a visit at my Mom's and this talk show sparked a pretty heated debate between her and I.

When one of the callers to the show stated, that by allowing Gay marriages, it put a blight, or turned his 20+ year marriage into a joke? I had had it.

My mom is opposed to the Gay marriage due to her religious beliefs based on what the bible has stated. She simply is *old school* and see's any type of gay relationship as one based in debauchery and pervision~

Through out time, there are many documented cases, of large groups of men, having been bi/gay, that practiced in homo-sexual relationships in large camps. From the Romans, to even a Regime of Hitler,( just to name a couple )

There was a time when these sexual *practices* and decisions, back in biblical times, had to be looked at a bit sideways shall we say? Because it was actually affecting the laws of "go forth and multiply" and procreation- was at an all time low (there were real *drops* in birth rates) Which is why a lot of the old texts were penned. ( A lot of people dont like this part of history but it is fact ) but this is just another small example, of where prejudices against gay couples have been handed down to us.

When my mom...( who is a wonderful person btw...!!!) said that she agreed with the man who said it some how tainted his years long marriage to his wife? I disagreed.

IMO ~ I have know of gay couples who have stayed together in strong loving relationships, who work and have good moral and Christian ethics/values that would surpass my own, and even though that most Christian based religions will cast them away and reject them! They LOVE each other every bit as much as any man / woman relationship.

To compare one relationship to another and decide if its to be allowed? It very pompous and judgmental and is in itself a greater unacceptable abomination !

Using the *fear* that it will be taught to our children in schools is a homophobic knee jerk seeking statement, meant to cause predjudices. I for one dont buy into it. I for another, will vote yes on Prop 8. I am also a Christian, but I am able to think for myself and still know I am following the love of God in my life. However I will not sit by and allow anyone who loves another person with all they have!!! to not be allowed to enter the sanctity of marriage and become a couple in life.

Granted they have this ability to be a couple in life without marriage, but it holds very little in security as far as survivor ship entitlements and recognitions etc. in our courts of law and when or if medical conditions arise.

I am not married to the man I have been living with for 12 years now...and believe me I know about these *someday* issues we face first hand like survivor benefits from Social Security, just to name one~

I believe and feel, with all my heart that ;

They can and DO love and cherish their mates as much as any of us do~ I believe they have the right to also experience the sanctified state of matrimony. ( and divorce...;) ) Sorry, but yea, there is always that flip side.....

Gay people do NOT try to *convert* you to become gay...( unlike some religions I know!!!! )

Our children will not be *tainted* by this in any way ~ other than the ability to recognize that is a real part of life for some people! and not one to run in fear from or hold in prejudice.

It is not going to lead us down the merry road to hell and damnation. Quite the opposite. The merry road to hell is taken in that first step of judging another and harming them by this judgment.

Get real people. Our society isnt degrading in moral character due to same sex relationships! and allowing them to make a legal commitment to each other when so many of them have been together for just as long and even longer than most hetero marriages have survived!

I realize that what I have said here isnt going to be liked by a lot of people. I'm sorry. But I see nothing but un-rationalized fears being used to approve or deny another person the rights they should just have anyway~ I am in FAVOR of gay marriage based on just good common sense and sense of whats fair and just, and ANY type of *phobia* is just that. A phobia, not based in fact but un-rationalized fears.

[dancingqueen]

I just got a phone call this weekend wanting to know if I supported Prop 8 or not. I said NO I do not support that prop and they wanted to explain it to me, I said, NO I am not stupid I know what I support and what I do not support. My husband is a retired principal (30) years and he is from CT. Believe me, there may have been 1 teacher or librarian who read King of Kings to a class room, but they do not teach gay marriage in CT or any other state.They are far too busy trying to teach what the state mandates them to teach. One of my sisters has been in a lesbian relationship for many years. They just want the same rights that the rest of us have. My husband just had a hip replacement and believe me, even though all of those HIPPA forms had been signed, every nurse and every doctor that walked in the room said to him, may I talk to you infront of your wife? After a while it got very irritating. My sister and her partner have never had to go through any of that type of situation, but they dread the day they do. I think that at first Prop 8 was getting support but now I hear that the support is turning around, against it. I hear on CNN that it had dropped 10% over the weekend.

[David_V]

....Is it really about money? Maybe about insurance coverage? Is it because they don't want gay partners to be able to visit a dying or sick loved one? I just don't get it!
It is all about religious fundamentalists forcing their religious beliefs on everyone.

[kellieflan]

From CBS News' Scott Conroy:

(COLORADO SPRINGS, COLO.) - In an interview with CBN’s David Brody, Sarah Palin signaled her support for a constitutional ban on gay marriage, a position that John McCain once described as “antithetical in every way to the core philosophy of Republicans.”

“I am, in my own, state, I have voted along with the vast majority of Alaskans who had the opportunity to vote to amend our Constitution defining marriage as between one man and one woman. I wish on a federal level that that's where we would go because I don't support gay marriage,” Palin said.

For the remainder of this article, follow this link: cbsnews.com/blogs/2008/10/20/politics/fromtheroad/entry4531945.shtml

[monkey]

Last Sunday I was driving by the canned food store by the school road and there were about 15-20 people holding up signs to vote Yes on Prop 8. They were clearly people from a church, judging from their signs. It is their right to do that, but it really bothered me that they had so many very young children out there with signs also. If I had kids, I sure wouldn't allow them to stand on the side of a road holding a controversial sign. Seems dangerous to me, and in this case, sad. I doubt if many of the kids were of an age to understand the topic of their signs.

[dancingqueen]

I agree!!!!!!!

[only1alphafemale]

Showing our children, or teaching them any type of bigotry, discrimination, racism and other unwarranted fears is not going to help anyone and just serves a greater injustice to mankind as a whole. It makes you wonder what else they are learning from the adults in their lives ~ :(

[Red Mule]

I'm glad to see I am not the only one that is confused by this issue. And I appreciate everyone that has responded.

However, I really thought there might be someone on our forum that favored Prop 8 and would be willing to explain the other side. Why, if they are against gay sex, they didn't just get honest and try to pass a law against that instead of a ban on gay marriage, which seems to me to be locking the barn door after the horse had already left.

[dancingqueen]

I think you just issued a very nice invitation Red Bull. I am sure that there are many, many forum members that will be voting in favor of Prop 8. I would like to hear what they have to say about it. I enjoy hearing other peoples views. Life is pretty boring if we all think alike.

[dancingqueen]

I am so sorry that was an honest mistake, Red Mule, I apologize.

[dancingqueen]

In the Fresno Bee today they do a pretty good job of explaining prop 8.

[motherof4]

Here is a web site on Yes on prop 8. They even have a board with answer to back their Yes.

http://www.yeson8.info/

[dancingqueen]

I went to this sight but I am not really interested in hearing someone interpret the bible to me. I belong to a wonderful bible study which allows each of us to read with an open mind and come to our own interpretation. I did see an article that interested me about a first grade class that was taken out of their class room to attend the marriage of their gay teacher. I thought it unusual. Because it was not a "news paper item" I went to snoops.com to see if I could find anything on it, but I could not. This was something pretty recent, Oct 11th. When I have more time later today, I may look into it some more.

[Red Mule]

I agree with csciacca that I prefer to find my own religious understanding from the Bible. Or, if I were another religion, from whatever sources are appropriate. But, we are speaking about a law that would apply to ALL people, no matter what religion. Should we really have a right to apply what some Christians believe to a Buddist gay couple?

If we are using the literal reading of every book of the Bible to justify our laws, I think there are going to be a great many changes we would need to make. Leviticus 20:13 clearly states "If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death." So, I guess we should add this as another death penalty offense.

But, why stop there?
Don't let cattle graze with other kinds of Cattle (Leviticus 19:19)
Don't have a variety of crops on the same field. (Leviticus 19:19)
Don't wear clothes made of more than one fabric (Leviticus 19:19)
Don't cut your hair nor shave. (Leviticus 19:27)
and so on...

That last one kind of reminds me of the Taliban. You remember them? They are the Muslim religous fanatics that took over Afganistan and banned just about everything, from education to shaving in the name of their religion. They are also responsible for harboring the 9/11 terrorists. Do we really want to follow in their footsteps?

But, back to the topic here, are there any non-religous justifications for Prop 8?

Anyone?

[David_V]

I think you just issued a very nice invitation Red Bull. I am sure that there are many, many forum members that will be voting in favor of Prop 8. I would like to hear what they have to say about it. I enjoy hearing other peoples views. Life is pretty boring if we all think alike.
We covered the topic a few months ago in another thread. The reasons to be against it were the usual; ruin marriage for straights, marriage is for having children only, the Bible say no, will bring down our society, and so on.

I've not seen one legitimate argument against letting gays marry. I don't know... could there be a legitimate argument against it?:shrug:

[Ironhorse]

Seems to me if one of the big arguments against gay marriage is that it ruins marriage for straights, then they haven't been watching straights ruin marriage themselves. Just look at the divorce rate, cheating, abuse, marriage of the month (week, day or even hour) and everything else that goes on. Looks to me like gays couldn't anything worse to those records for failure of the "institution of marriage".

[beautiful_mess38]

Ironhorse, I was going to say the same thing. The marriage between man and woman have already been destroyed. For some it's something to do in Vegas then divorce 2 days later.
Man and woman no longer work on thier marriages. Marriage means different things to different people. I believe the gay couples will work very hard on thiers being they don't take it for granted and they fought so hard to get it.

The Bible was written not just by one person but several. It's thier own account of what happened or by the scrolls that were found.

I believe in God/Jesus but I don't belong to a certain religion. It's why I go to a community church. I worship the way I want to worship. I don't think worshipping God comes with a book full of rules. And I don't think gay people will go to hell for being gay. Afterall arn't most of them born that way? Some choose to expierment but most know thier gay at a very young age.

I will be voting no on prop 8.
If the day ever arises in this county where they will be teaching this subject in school, I will be pulling my kids out. I should be the one whom teaches them, not they man/woman whom wrote the book to teach it thier way.

[Yosemite Joy]

I would welcome the addition of homosexuality to the regular sex education my children will receive in school. I have recently been talking and have given literature to my daughter (she's turning 9 soon) about sexuality and body changes, -- sex questions are really right around the corner (waiting until age 11 or so, unless she specifically asks).

I would not have any problem with my children being gay, and I want them to have the same CIVIL rights as myself.

Did you know that interracial marriage was illegal until 1969? People thought that would be the "end of marriage" that it was blasphemous, and would tear down the walls of society.

I believe the reason that there are gay hate crimes and homophobia is ignorance. People hate what they are afraid of.

And as far as the Bible goes, pfft, it is cited as a reason for people to share hate with their children. What sort of God allows people to be born homosexual and then criminalizes (even asking people to murder) these same people.

But FYI: NOTHING about homosexuality or sex is allowed to be taught to your children in public schools of California. This proposition does NOT mandate it, or say a single word about teaching children about gay lifestyles.

[David_V]

Seems to me if one of the big arguments against gay marriage is that it ruins marriage for straights, then they haven't been watching straights ruin marriage themselves. Just look at the divorce rate, cheating, abuse, marriage of the month (week, day or even hour) and everything else that goes on. Looks to me like gays couldn't anything worse to those records for failure of the "institution of marriage".
I don't even see a connection. There is no way that gays getting married would effect straights getting married. Well... maybe there will be more competition for banquet rooms.

[Ironhorse]

I don't even see a connection. There is no way that gays getting married would effect straights getting married. Well... maybe there will be more competition for banquet rooms.

Well, that's what I'm trying to figure out, what possible connection there could be on the effect on straight marriage because gay marriage is allowed? Just another dumb argument to me, a desperation one. But..................maybe you have a point about the banquet rooms...........and the caterers and singers, and DJ's and all that. Hmmmmm, maybe if gays agree to get married ONLY in the unpopular months that the straights don't want to get married in??????????

[kellieflan]

Dear Ironhorse and others,

I support gay marriage, I oppose Prop 8, I made a dumb joke and I should have just stayed out of it! Please accept my apologies! I have removed my questionable comment and request all to continue the discussion and I will try to filter my goofy thoughts in the future (wish me luck).

[Ironhorse]

Dear Ironhorse and others,

I support gay marriage, I oppose Prop 8, I made a dumb joke and I should have just stayed out of it! Please accept my apologies! I have removed my questionable comment and request all to continue the discussion and I will try to filter my goofy thoughts in the future (wish me luck).

Add to it Kellieflan!!!!! I just didn't understand what you meant, LOL. I'll keep posting and you keep posting. I removed my response too.

[Yosemite Joy]

Dear Ironhorse and others,

I support gay marriage, I oppose Prop 8, I made a dumb joke and I should have just stayed out of it! Please accept my apologies! I have removed my questionable comment and request all to continue the discussion and I will try to filter my goofy thoughts in the future (wish me luck).

I missed something! Was it satire?

[Patagoniamaniac]

Forgive me for being extremely frank and crude with this post but..Fudge packing just doesnt seem natural to me..sorry !Its just my feelings on the matter...most of you know me to be brutaly honest with my feelings so there you go....I have some friends that are gay and I love them dearly..love the sinner hate the sin...I dont judge them...I have just formed my opinion as all of you have formed your own..Just as some of you think eating brussell sprouts is Gross LOL... i think same sex marriage is well...echhhh!...thats all....cmon...most of you have a hard time even picturing the sexual act in your heads and if you dont your lying....anyways thats just me... pata..and you know me...you can remove this post now.moderator.....

[citizen]

Forgive me for being extremely frank and crude with this post but..Fudge packing just doesnt seem natural to me..sorry !Its just my feelings on the matter...most of you know me to be brutaly honest with my feelings so there you go....you can remove this post now...

What's right for you is not necessarily right for everyone else on this planet. I myself, love packing as much fudge as I can in my body.... Fudge is soooo yummy!

<IMG SRC="http://img214.imageshack.us/img214/5296/doublechocolatefudgeqf6.jpg">

[Yosemite Joy]

Forgive me for being extremely frank and crude with this post but..Fudge packing just doesnt seem natural to me..sorry !Its just my feelings on the matter...most of you know me to be brutaly honest with my feelings so there you go....I have some friends that are gay and I love them dearly..love the sinner hate the sin...I dont judge them...I have just formed my opinion as all of you have formed your own..Just as some of you think eating brussell sprouts is Gross LOL... i think same sex marriage is well...echhhh!...thats all....cmon...most of you have a hard time even picturing the sexual act in your heads and if you dont your lying....anyways thats just me... pata..and you know me...you can remove this post now.moderator.....

Ecch, indeed, I threw up a little in my mouth when I read this post.

[Patagoniamaniac]

lol....you must not like Brussel sprouts

[Mysteefied]

Forgive me for being extremely frank and crude with this post but..Fudge packing just doesnt seem natural to me..sorry !Its just my feelings on the matter...most of you know me to be brutaly honest with my feelings so there you go....I have some friends that are gay and I love them dearly..love the sinner hate the sin...I dont judge them...I have just formed my opinion as all of you have formed your own..Just as some of you think eating brussell sprouts is Gross LOL... i think same sex marriage is well...echhhh!...thats all....cmon...most of you have a hard time even picturing the sexual act in your heads and if you dont your lying....anyways thats just me... pata..and you know me...you can remove this post now.moderator.....

Ok, so what's your point, that because its not right for you then everyone should live by your feelings? because YOU don't want to think about gay sex, then gay marraige should not be legal? Because trust me, if gay marraige isn't legal, there is still going to be gay sex...just without marriage.
And...why are you thinking about gay sex? I have gay friends and I have straight friends and I can honestly say, I never think about any of them having sex...I don't care about them having sex. I do however care about all of their rights to have a long and happy marraige...I think everyone has the right to be as happy and secure as I am with my husband, I think two ladies who love each other unconditionally should legally be able to be married and be as happy and secure as I am, without having to feel like they are some sort of rejects, and if two guys down the street or next door, want to live together and love each other, and be married...I believe with all of my heart that they also deserve to feel like they can get married and feel secure with each other.

that's my 2 cents.

[Patagoniamaniac]

Im not bashing anyone at all here mystee..settle down. I never mentioned anything about same sex marriage being wrong....I mentioned that I have awesome friends that are gay. But when I see them and think in the back of my mind in my humaness, I cant help but feel the sex act that they ingage in is repulsive. Am I entitled to my opinon on this matter ? or should I be banned for being blunt about what i believe. If the guys like to be fudge packed..so be it..as for a women with another women..echhhh!..That is MY.. hear me..MY opinon..get it? I really dont care what anyone else thinks..thats just how I feel.... AM I ALONE AGAIN HERE PEOPLE??????????????????......I'm beginning to think these forums are one sided......or i need 10 alter egos to back me up...!!!

[Yosemite Joy]

What's So Bad About Hate? (http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9C01E5DB1E3CF935A1575AC0A96F9582 60&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=5)

I found this interesting, and telling.

[Yosemite Joy]

Im not bashing anyone at all here mystee..settle down. I mentioned that I have awesome friends that are gay, theres no need to get upset. But when I see them ...I just cant help to think in my humaness that the sex act that they ingage in is repulsive. Am I entitled to my opinon on this matter ? or should I be banned for being blunt about what i believe. AM I ALONE AGAIN HERE PEOPLE??????????????????......I'm beginning to think these forums are one sided...I seriously need to find another place where others can understand my thoughts...or i need 10 more alter egos to back me up...!!!

I want to know who these alter egos are that lurk in the shadowy corners of Yosemitearea.com.

It is like the racist who claims they have "black friends" to justify that they aren't racist.

Do your gay friends know you secretly loathe them?

Not every gay couple has anal sex.

Some straight couples have anal sex.

[Sandman]

Everyone has a right to their opinion and this site is a huge supporter of free speech. I'm not going to censor this post just because the majority here disagrees. I'm not gonna sugar coat things and remove things just because people think it's distasteful. I feel that Mysteefied expressed her opinions on the subject very well and I agree with what she said. But that's just MY personal opinion. I don't expect everyone to agree with me and I will respect Patagoniamaniacs right to share her opinion. This is what debating and communicating is all about. This is what America is about. Just remember, no personal attacks.

[Ironhorse]

Ok, so what's your point, that because its not right for you then everyone should live by your feelings? because YOU don't want to think about gay sex, then gay marraige should not be legal? Because trust me, if gay marraige isn't legal, there is still going to be gay sex...just without marriage.
And...why are you thinking about gay sex? I have gay friends and I have straight friends and I can honestly say, I never think about any of them having sex...I don't care about them having sex. I do however care about all of their rights to have a long and happy marraige...I think everyone has the right to be as happy and secure as I am with my husband, I think two ladies who love each other unconditionally should legally be able to be married and be as happy and secure as I am, without having to feel like they are some sort of rejects, and if two guys down the street or next door, want to live together and love each other, and be married...I believe with all of my heart that they also deserve to feel like they can get married and feel secure with each other.

that's my 2 cents.

Well said, thank you Mysteefied.

[Ironhorse]

Im not bashing anyone at all here mystee..settle down. I never mentioned anything about same sex marriage being wrong....I mentioned that I have awesome friends that are gay. But when I see them and think in the back of my mind in my humaness, I cant help but feel the sex act that they ingage in is repulsive. Am I entitled to my opinon on this matter ? or should I be banned for being blunt about what i believe. If the guys like to be fudge packed..so be it..as for a women with another women..echhhh!..That is MY.. hear me..MY opinon..get it? I really dont care what anyone else thinks..thats just how I feel.... AM I ALONE AGAIN HERE PEOPLE??????????????????......I'm beginning to think these forums are one sided......or i need 10 alter egos to back me up...!!!

You're entitled to your opinion, but it doesn't need to be expressed so crudely. I'm surprised actually that you have nothing better to occupy your mind than how two people engage in sex.

[Patagoniamaniac]

This is ridiculous!you all crack me up....with your perfect minds..goodnight!

[Ironhorse]

I want to know who these alter egos are that lurk in the shadowy corners of Yosemitearea.com.

It is like the racist who claims they have "black friends" to justify that they aren't racist.

Do your gay friends know you secretly loathe them?

Not every gay couple has anal sex.

Some straight couples have anal sex.

Good points.

[Mysteefied]

Im not bashing anyone at all here mystee..settle down. I never mentioned anything about same sex marriage being wrong....I mentioned that I have awesome friends that are gay. But when I see them and think in the back of my mind in my humaness, I cant help but feel the sex act that they ingage in is repulsive. Am I entitled to my opinon on this matter ? or should I be banned for being blunt about what i believe. If the guys like to be fudge packed..so be it..as for a women with another women..echhhh!..That is MY..MY opinon... AM I ALONE AGAIN HERE PEOPLE??????????????????......I'm beginning to think these forums are one sided......or i need 10 more alter egos to back me up...!!!

Ok, step back a minute, I never said you were bashing anyone. I was trying to get my point accross that I didn't understand why you thought about what same sex couples do in the privacy of their bedrooms. I don't understand why you have to be so crude about any sex act. the language you use is totally unaceptable for this forum or anywhere else!

I am allowed to say whats on my mind too... so if you want to say whats on yours, I deserve the same.
I am so glad to hear that you're not against same sex marraige. I didn't know that.
I stand corrected.

[kellieflan]

:no: I will not quote the offensive phrase, but I will say I have not heard that phrase since high school, more than thirty years ago, and I had hoped to never hear it again.

I am another strong voice that says, please share your opinion, but use your words wisely and with great care. Preferably, use your grown up words.

The option to marry for same sex unions is our modern day civil rights issue.

PS: I love brussels sprouts, let's not drag them into this, it's painful enough.

[David_V]

... i think same sex marriage is well...echhhh!...thats all....
That's the great thing about gay marriage - if you don't like it you don't have to marry one, nor do you have to participate in their sex life. And don't forget, lesbians aren't into the "fudge packing" bit.... well.... I'd assume most of them aren't.

For those that are gay, just like us heterosexuals, their sex life is not their ENTIRE life. Try thinking of them in terms of a loving couple instead of a sex act you're not going to be a part of.

[Sewmaui]

Does the act of having sex equal to the act of loving someone? Most people would say that sex is a way of expressing love but does not always mean "Love". How many times do we hear people in movies and in real life say they enjoy having sex but it doesn't mean they love the person they are having it with.... they just enjoy fulfilling their lust for the act. It is the sexual part that most Christians dislike in homosexual relationships because the Bible clearly states it is wrong. God said certain sexual practices were sinful. Romans 1:26-27 is just one passage that pertains to homosexual practices. So :thumbsup: to Patagoniamaniac.

God never said that loving each other was wrong, He promotes Love. I love my husband, I love my family, I love my friends and , yes, I even love all of you. I may not agree with your beliefs or unbeliefs but I do believe strongly in my faith with God through Jesus Christ and what the Bible says so there will be times that I will quote from the Bible even it it falls on deaf ears because it is the base I stand on in my life.

As I have stated in a previous thread, I support Prop. 8 because marriage should be defined as between one man and one woman as it was originally intended for. Even though not every marriage is perfect, I still feel strongly that it is a term that should only be for unions between one man and one woman.

Homosexuals already have their rights with the Domestic Partnership decisions so why try to change the "marriage" definition, their relationships are different so pick another name and define that the way they want to define it.

I still will not agree with their choice of lifestyles because of my belief but at least when I am with my best friend and someone asks if I am married, I can say yes...and not have to further explain that it is not with the woman I am with but with a man who happens to not be with me. Life can be so complicated sometimes....why add to it. :D

Getting back to my opening statement, Love is so much more than sex!

[David_V]

Im not bashing anyone at all here mystee..settle down. I never mentioned anything about same sex marriage being wrong....I mentioned that I have awesome friends that are gay. But when I see them and think in the back of my mind in my humaness, I cant help but feel the sex act that they ingage in is repulsive.
That's a perfectly human response. But why are you so obsessed with their sex life? :grin:

Am I entitled to my opinon on this matter ? or should I be banned for being blunt about what i believe. If the guys like to be fudge packed..so be it..as for a women with another women..echhhh!..
Now wait a minute there..... it's almost universal that guys like to see to women going at it. I don't know why, but it is. But (no pun intended) you are entitled to your opinion and it seems that you do not judge or act in a biased manner against gays.

That is MY.. hear me..MY opinon..get it? I really dont care what anyone else thinks..thats just how I feel.... AM I ALONE AGAIN HERE PEOPLE??????????????????......I'm beginning to think these forums are one sided......or i need 10 alter egos to back me up...!!!
Maybe you're just a bit too honest in expressing your opinion in this matter. Male gay sex has no appeal to me what so ever. I'm straight, so I don't see why it should. But that doesn't mean I cannot give gays my heartfelt and sincere support. I don't think of them as a sex act, but as a person.

[Red Mule]

Pata,

I understand you are not comfortable with gay sex. And that is your RIGHT. We all have our reasons for the way we feel about this and many other things. I remember a very wild night, many years ago, when I was very comfortable with 3 (censored), but that is another story entirely. :)

But, Prop 8 has nothing to do with the legality or morality or even the comfort levels we may have with any sort of sex. It is about taking away other people’s RIGHT to do something any non-gay person can do. That legal right, or lack of it, can affect their lives very much.

I know a certain lady that was diagnosed with breast cancer a few years ago. She went through treatments and procedures that many such cancer victims must go through. It was very difficult, but her life partner was there for her through every bit of it. Her partner never failed her. Luckily, she survived. But, they had to face more difficulties that married couples in the same position have to face. Issues with insurance, with hospital rules, with rights of survivorship, and so on.

You will notice, I didn’t specify if they were gay or not. Just that they were unmarried life-partners. Frankly, I just don’t see that their respective genders had anything to do with this very true story.

This is what Prop 8 is about. Not gay sex, which is – was – and still will be legal whether Prop 8 passes or not.

[David_V]

... It is the sexual part that most Christians dislike in homosexual relationships because the Bible clearly states it is wrong.
Not everyone believes in that god, nor follows your interpretation.

As I have stated in a previous thread, I support Prop. 8 because marriage should be defined as between one man and one woman as it was originally intended for....
Where is this "original intent"? Don't you realize that the "original intent" was for the church to make a profit off of it? It has to do with profit, not procreation. And this gets a giant SO WHAT! Allowing gays to get married will not prevent any heterosexual from getting married. Nothing for them will change.

Homosexuals already have their rights with the Domestic Partnership...
Not good enough. This old "separate but equal" bit is not right.

I still will not agree with their choice of lifestyles because of my belief but at least when I am with my best friend and someone asks if I am married, I can say yes...and not have to further explain ...
You won't have to explain anyway. If you do not like the gay "life style" (what ever that is) then you do not have to join in.

[karen]

You can't teach your kids in school to marry the same sex!!! Pay Attention to what your kids will be taught.

[Patagoniamaniac]

That's a perfectly human response. But why are you so obsessed with their sex life? :grin:


Now wait a minute there..... it's almost universal that guys like to see to women going at it. I don't know why, but it is. But (no pun intended) you are entitled to your opinion and it seems that you do not judge or act in a biased manner against gays.


Maybe you're just a bit too honest in expressing your opinion in this matter. Male gay sex has no appeal to me what so ever. I'm straight, so I don't see why it should. But that doesn't mean I cannot give gays my heartfelt and sincere support. I don't think of them as a sex act, but as a person.

LOL....I should get paid for stirring things up on these forums!....I knew it would....I truly know who's being honest here....wink...wouldnt these forums be boring without someone to pick on?...And are you serious about guys liking women making out with each other?..speak for yourself...what were you saying about being obsessed with someones sex life?..where's your mind at David????????

[David_V]

You can't teach your kids in school to marry the same sex!!! Pay Attention to what your kids will be taught.
I would hope that they would be taught in school, as I would teach them at home, that two people that love each other should be able to get married. I would also teach them that it is highly immoral to force a whole set of outdated religious beliefs on a whole group of people.

You can teach your kids something else if you want, but I'll teach my kids to love, not hate.

[David_V]

LOL....I should get paid for stirring things up on these forums!....I knew it would....I truly know who's being honest here....wink...wouldnt these forums be boring without someone to pick on?...And are you serious about guys liking women making out with each other?..speak for yourself..
No, I'm not kidding, nor am I speaking for myself. Just about every adult male I know, except for a few that are gay, would not mind watching two women having fun.

what were you saying about being obsessed with someones sex life?..where's your mind at David????????
I'm not obsessed with it. I can look at a lesbian couple without thinking of them having sex, just the way I would look at any other couple, gay or straight, and not think of them having sex. As long as it only includes consenting adults, another person's sex life is none of my business.

[jakobscalpel]

Ah, the joys of a homosexuality and marriage thread.

I was at a party hosted by a gay couple this summer. Wonderful clean house, well manicured dog as a child substitute, a pool table on the second floor, and the worst beer I've ever had at a party (and that includes grapevine parties in high school). Being the gracious guest that I am, I prowled through their house looking for disgusting sexual implements or the secret rebellious elements of illegal marriage. Sadly, I found none, just more bad beer slowly warming in the non-working fridge on the scalding third floor. However, they were playing a game called "********" in the backyard, in which I participated and quite enjoyed. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/********_(game). The gay guys and their various guests, straight and gay, were a lively group of mid-western yokels. I must admit that several of the gay men were uncommonly attractive. I can see why, unfortunately, my sister hangs around them. Anyway, to the thread and beyond:

Gay Marriage = In favor because I don't care
Gay Sex in Public = opposed
The term used earlier in thread = Funny in 1999 in Office Space, not funny now
Homosexuality taught in public schools (pejorative or otherwise) = opposed
Every show on TV containing a token gay character = opposed

EDIT: So the game I played, which is a real game and not inappropriate in any way, is a banned word on this forum!! PM me for details.

[Michelle]

You're entitled to your opinion, but it doesn't need to be expressed so crudely. I'm surprised actually that you have nothing better to occupy your mind than how two people engage in sex.
okay lets take it easy on the needle poking at Pata and what she said... move on with the subject at hand... she is entitled to her own opinion...

supporting the gay rights or not...that is what is at hand is it not....

[Michelle]

Yeah the one problem I do have is the teaching in our schools about homosexuality, that I am not to fond of... I feel they are taking to much away from us parents and what we should be teaching our children. I am not to happy with that part....

[Yosemite Joy]

Yeah the one problem I do have is the teaching in our schools about homosexuality, that I am not to fond of... I feel they are taking to much away from us parents and what we should be teaching our children. I am not to happy with that part....

That is NOT part of the proposition! Read it!

[Ironhorse]

okay lets take it easy on the needle poking at Pata and what she said... move on with the subject at hand... she is entitled to her own opinion...

supporting the gay rights or not...that is what is at hand is it not....

And it can be supported or not supported without resorting to crude comments which are hurtful to others. I expressed an opinion on the crudeness and also an observation (Opinion)

[Ironhorse]

Somehow the discussion brings the word "bigotry" to mind......

[Red Mule]

The issue of teaching about gay sex to young children in school is a red herring. It is used because most parents would oppose it for a variety of reasons. And that's not what Prop 8 addresses anyway. That said, I see no problem with answering questions from teenagers about sex. Sex education will do more to avoid abortions than any number of protests.

On the proposition sex, gay and otherwise, this should be dealt with a home. Yes! But too many parents don't. I have 2 daughters that have worked in different positions in vastly different schools, who ended up dealing with troubled and "in trouble" kids. The one common thread is that the parents do not deal with issues they would rather avoid. Either that, or they are just too wrapped up in their own problems to bother.

Everyone that has shown support for Prop 8 seems to keep missing the point. Do they really want our civil laws to conform to a single religion's propositions? So, we would become a Theocracy? Maybe that’s OK if it happens to be your religion. But, what if it’s someone else’s religion? Nor have they thought it through. I doubt very many people today would like living under ALL the biblical laws and injunctions. They just want to pick and choose. But, who gets to pick and who gets to choose?

Does everyone else have to convert or leave? That’s not the America I grew up in.

[Ironhorse]

The issue of teaching about gay sex to young children in school is a red herring. It is used because most parents would oppose it for a variety of reasons. And that's not what Prop 8 addresses anyway. That said, I see no problem with answering questions from teenagers about sex. Sex education will do more to avoid abortions than any number of protests.

On the proposition sex, gay and otherwise, this should be dealt with a home. Yes! But too many parents don't. I have 2 daughters that have worked in different positions in vastly different schools, who ended up dealing with troubled and "in trouble" kids. The one common thread is that the parents do not deal with issues they would rather avoid. Either that, or they are just too wrapped up in their own problems to bother.

Everyone that has shown support for Prop 8 seems to keep missing the point. Do they really want our civil laws to conform to a single religion's propositions? So, we would become a Theocracy? Maybe that’s OK if it happens to be your religion. But, what if it’s someone else’s religion? Nor have they thought it through. I doubt very many people today would like living under ALL the biblical laws and injunctions. They just want to pick and choose. But, who gets to pick and who gets to choose?

Does everyone else have to convert or leave? That’s not the America I grew up in.

Good observations, and you are right on the issue of sex being taught to kids in school. No, that's not where it should be happening, but it's not happening at home. At least not until a child shows up saying "Uh, gee, I'm pregnant", or "uh, gee, my girl friend got pregnant",THEN they get an earful of what they should have done to keep that from happening. So if the parents don't take responsibility, then someone else has to step in unfortunately. As far as gay marriage, gays living together, gays having sex together, as several have stated, they are human, living breathing humans, with feelings like mine and yours. Why SHOULDN"T they be afforded the same privileges and rights of a "legal" joining? They aren't hurting anyone else, they certainly aren't contributing to the so-called moral decay of our world, heck, straights can take as much or more credit for that claim as gays have loaded on them over it. Gays make no more demands on our social services than the smokers, drinkers, mentally ill, criminals to be rehabbed, or anything else. They are people, like all of us, they just happen to have partners/soul-mates of the same sex rather than the opposite sex. Regardless, it doesn't affect me, and if others were honest with themselves, it doesn't affect them, other than their need to dictate to others how they should live their lives.

[only1alphafemale]

I agree. This is not an issue about sex, but about rights. However, since so many seem to be afraid of this sex education talk, and since its being used as a vialbe tool of persuasion in the media, I will go here with just a little walk down memory lane , (though it may be a little outdated) , I am sure the premise is still the same teachings in schools, and its what I recall about sex education that was taught in schools~

1) It taught us the anatomy of the sex organs. Ovaries, semen etc. Simple Anatomy.
2) It taught us how a child was conceived. One egg, one sperm and so forth.
3) Education on STD's and what they were were also taught. (VD etc. )

I do NOT ever recall ANY explicit teachings in a sex education class about exactly *HOW* to do it, or with whom to do *it* ~ as the overall theme of the sex education class was just that, education that was geared towards preventing unwanted pregnancies in children/young adults and the avoidance of contacting and transmitting of STD's.

Anatomy, and conception were taught. The rest was left up to our *devices* shall we say? along with cautions of what the old term called *heavy petting* may or could lead to, and that coitus interruptis? (sp) was NOT a safe means of birth control......;)

No sexually explicit information was taught, so this knee jerk fear that is being touted in the commercials etc. (which I find a deplorable form of *manipulation* of real facts ) ~ about gay sex being taught in our schools? Pretty incredulous !

Your taught that should you decide to have sex, to wear a condom, use birth control etc. Is just that. HOW or with what SEX you have it with, the same precautions still apply. Use safe sex practices.

Now with that out of the way, this is an issue that is NOT about sex! Its about our rights. Its about protecting the rights of others, which therefor also protects OUR rights in the long run. Its EVERYONES rights here!

Everyday we loose as many rights as we gain.

Sometimes whats *ethical* may not always be deemed as *moral* but a lot of times? our *morals* need to be looked at and questioned also., while we struggle to maintain a healthy, fair and just balance for ~~> ALL ! and I dont see where homophobic fears? are either a fair or moral basis of decision. I dont see where the decision of two adults to marry, enters in to somehow tainting our children! Read what the propostion states! and not just what your reading in the news or opinions in the media! Do the research and READ it for yourself!

[Edana]

"Tolerance is the virtue of a man without convictions." GC Chesterton


*ducks & covers*

[jakobscalpel]

Nice quote ;) Of course, no one ever said convictions have to be correct!

[Ironhorse]

Jerome Nathanson:
The price of the democratic way of life is a growing appreciation of people's differences, not merely as tolerable, but as the essence of a rich and rewarding human experience.


Paul McCartney:
I used to think anyone doing anything weird was weird. Now I know that it is the people that call others weird that are weird.


Rene Dubos:
Human diversity makes tolerance more than a virtue; it makes it a requirement for survival.
Celebrations of Life, 1981

[monkey]

To me, this all comes down to a matter of equality. By voting Yes on Prop 8, one is saying that because someone is gay, they are not to be considered of equal value to myself or others. And that's just not right.

[dancingqueen]

Monkey, can you hear me clapping?

[Sewmaui]

To me, this all comes down to a matter of equality. By voting Yes on Prop 8, one is saying that because someone is gay, they are not to be considered of equal value to myself or others. And that's just not right.

I am voting YES on Prop. 8 because it is a vote on the definition of Marriage. This Proposition has nothing to do with the value of people. I do not value gays less than my fellow Christians.

How can one compare marriage between a man and a woman as equal to two men or two women.....it is comparing apples to oranges.

I have heard from some gays that they do not want to use the term marriage because they also see the definition and they just want to have the same legal rights, they do not care about the wording.

All the people I know who are voting Yes would not agree with your statement. JMO

[Ironhorse]

This Proposition has nothing to do with the value of people. I do not value gays less than my fellow Christians.



Interesting you should feel the need to differentiate between gays and your "fellow Christians". Like, um, maybe you think gays can't be Christians too?

[monkey]

Respectfully, an apple is an apple and an orange is an orange. Someone who is gay is a person and a human being and someone who is straight is a person and a human being. That argument doesn't work for me.
If a gay couple doesn't want the term Marriage, then they don't have to get married, just as many straights don't.
JMHO

[BGW]

So...what DO we call those wonderful people at See's Candy that box up our fudge???? (I like mine with nuts) LOL :D :D :D

[only1alphafemale]

So...what DO we call those wonderful people at See's Candy that box up our fudge???? (I like mine with nuts) LOL :D :D :D

http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/mm302/Shesalonewolf/cartoons/funny-6.jpg :p :grin:

[Sewmaui]

Interesting you should feel the need to differentiate between gays and your "fellow Christians". Like, um, maybe you think gays can't be Christians too?

Ironhorse, nowhere in my statement did I state the two "qualifiers" as different. The previous post referred to the value of gays and other people. I was stating two groups also, using the one group Monkey used and the other group of people that I am close to. I never said "all" fellow Christians, I stated "my" fellow Christians which are people that I respect.

As far as your last question....that is a another topic which is not part of this thread. If you feel you need an answer, it should have been directed to me privately or maybe you should start a thread.

[Mysteefied]

I guess I don't understand why many people have a problem with the word Marriage. Why can't gay people use the word marraige? is it going to make all heterosexuals blow up or something? What word would you rather they use? I mean....I really just don't get it. It frustraits me, because it's a word....it's not going to make heterosexual women and men become gay, it's not going to take away from the meaning of a heterosexual marraige.

my gay friend suzie should be able to say..."this is my wife". and my straight friend lisa can say t"his is my husband", I don't think people are going to be confused by that....not even children.

MY marraige to my husband is not going to mean less to me if Suzie and her partner get married, on the contrary, we are going to be overjoyed that they found love! Like we did, we are going to go to the wedding and bring a heartfelt gift and party the night away with them and all their guests in celebration of their love.

[Sewmaui]

Respectfully, an apple is an apple and an orange is an orange. Someone who is gay is a person and a human being and someone who is straight is a person and a human being. That argument doesn't work for me.
If a gay couple doesn't want the term Marriage, then they don't have to get married, just as many straights don't.
JMHO

As I stated.......Prop 8 is about a definition and if historically and culturally around the whole world, marriage has always stood for a union between one man and one woman, why change it. This Prop 8 is not about rights just definition clarification. We have added new words to our dictionaries, so like I stated before....choose another word.

[Ironhorse]

Ironhorse, nowhere in my statement did I state the two "qualifiers" as different. The previous post referred to the value of gays and other people. I was stating two groups also, using the one group Monkey used and the other group of people that I am close to. I never said "all" fellow Christians, I stated "my" fellow Christians which are people that I respect.

As far as your last question....that is a another topic which is not part of this thread. If you feel you need an answer, it should have been directed to me privately or maybe you should start a thread.

So your fellow Christians, the ones you respect, are more deserving than gays, or gays who may be Christians, but aren't your "fellow" Christians, i.e. share your values. Nothing further need be said. When all is said and done, your "two groups" are all one group, the only difference being their choices of sexual partners maybe, the color of their skin and gender. And as for the color of skin, peel down far enough and we're all the same color. Your choice of terminology, that you felt you needed to make the distinction of "gays and Your fellow Christians" says enough. Thanks for clearing it up.

[only1alphafemale]

As I stated.......Prop 8 is about a definition and if historically and culturally around the whole world, marriage has always stood for a union between one man and one woman, why change it. This Prop 8 is not about rights just definition clarification. We have added new words to our dictionaries, so like I stated before....choose another word.

So what your saying here, or what I am reading and am asking for clarification on, is simply the term of marriage as a description of a union between a couple ? I disagree. This is NOT about a termination. It IS about the right of two people to be joined in a state of matrimony, and to state is about a definition? and a historical meaning of that definition? I disagree. After all, definitions can and DO change.

The term *gay* some 30yrs ago or so, meant happy........ This proposition is NOT about terminologies and definitions by a long shot.

Its about the rights of a couple to join in nuptials with a ceremony, who wish to be voluntarily joined in a close intimate union for life ~ and most of these couples have a spiritual belief, but *spirituality* and religious doctrine? Turns their back on them. Rebukes them.

Mans interpretation of ( Old Testament ) old bible statments and teachings has been influenced by Mans own *hidden* agenda's through out history, and those have been reflected in the bible writings.

I will listen to my heart and my mind, and what God says to ME on my personal level, and by allowing prejudices, and *possibly* outdated doctrines! , to influence that which common sense, fairness and intelligent compassion should also weigh in at? Is in itself a great sin IMO, when we dont use the brains that God gave a goose and HIDE behind religion to stand superior over any type of fears, and bigotry that inflicts harm, denies equal rights or in some other ways discredits another human being from being equal to all others.

[Ironhorse]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marriage - Just some excerpts below. The whole article is interesting to read.

"Article 16 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights declares that "Men and women of full age, without any limitation due to race, nationality or religion, have the right to marry and to found a family. They are entitled to equal rights as to marriage, during marriage and at its dissolution. Marriage shall be entered into only with the free and full consent of the intending spouses." The Cairo Declaration on Human Rights in Islam gives men and women the "right to marriage" regardless of their race, colour or nationality, but not religion." (Hmm, doesn't say they have to be opposite sex)

"The way in which a marriage is conducted has changed over time, as has the institution itself. Although the institution of marriage pre-dates reliable recorded history, many cultures have legends or religious beliefs concerning the origins of marriage.[11]"

"The first recorded use of the word "marriage" for the union of same-sex couples also occurs during the Roman Empire. The term, however, was rarely associated with same-sex relationships, even though the relationships themselves were common.[12] In the year 342, the Christian emperors Constantius and Constans declared that same-sex marriage to be illegal.[13] In the year 390, the Christian emperors Valentinian II, Theodoisus and Arcadius declared homosexual sex to be illegal and those who were guilty of it were condemned to be burned alive in front of the public.[14]" (****so once again man stepped in to stop something that was already in existence, there goes those Christian emperors again)

[Red Mule]

As I understand it, it's OK for gays to live together and have sex. It's even OK for them to have domestic partnerships as long as they don't call it marriage? Somehow, they don't meet the minimum standard for that? I don't know ANY gay person, and I know a few, that would argue against having the same rights as anyone else. If they don't chose to exercise a right to get married, that's no different from unmarried straight people living together. But, I don't hear anyone arguing against straight marriage.

Sewmaui's position reminds me of many racial "separate but equal" laws of a few years ago. But, it never was really equal was it? Just seperate, and different, and as far away from the whites as possible. I was hoping we had already learned that applying different rules just because someone was a little different was wrong for everyone.

I DO get it. Because many people are uncomfortable with gays, they use an Old Testament verse as justification for prejudice and a limit on personal rights. Even though it is surrounded by many other biblical laws they wouldn't suggest we apply today for a second.

For me, the message Jesus brought about love and understanding and forgiveness trumps every one of those old testaments laws. Even if it didn't, simple human compassion and fairness would convince me the to deny someone's rights just because of hair splitting over the meaning of a word is wrong.

Just as a last thought to those thinking of voting yes on this proposition, which way of it hurts the most people? Allowing gays to marry hurts nobody. Denying them that right hurts a great many people. Before you make that vote, please get it a few more thoughts.

[Mysteefied]

That kinda answers the next question I was going to have, because the more I read, the more confused I seem to get.

The question is: where is it written that marraige is solely between a man and a woman?

[Ironhorse]

That kinda answers the next question I was going to have, because the more I read, the more confused I seem to get.

The question is: where is it written that marraige is solely between a man and a woman?

The pro-Prop 8 people would like you to believe it has always been written that way, but you don't start finding that in writing until long after these issues started being recorded. As in the case of the Christian Roman emperors in the Wikipedia excerpts I posted who came along and outlawed same sex marriages specifically. Now you see it playing out in countries around the world, some allowing it, some not, and our states in the U.S., some allowing it, some not. It should be a nationwide, if not worldwide law. As it is now, even with straight marriages, what is legal regarding your marriage in one state, may NOT be legal in another state, that's ridiculous.

I think people confuse gay/lesbian/homosexuals with sexual predators and there's a BIG difference, one does not make the other. I also think when they talk about God and Jesus's words they lost sight of the most important ones, God and Jesus love ALL their children.

[David_V]

I am voting YES on Prop. 8 because it is a vote on the definition of Marriage. This Proposition has nothing to do with the value of people. I do not value gays less than my fellow Christians.
It has NOTHING to do with the definition of marriage. It will change nothing. And what is wrong with changing the definition, if you insist it does, anyway? It harms no one. It changes nothing for heterosexuals.

How can one compare marriage between a man and a woman as equal to two men or two women.....it is comparing apples to oranges.
So, you are saying that homosexuals are lesser people? How are they different? Why do you need to dismiss their feelings?

I have heard from some gays that they do not want to use the term marriage because they also see the definition and they just want to have the same legal rights, they do not care about the wording.
Others, the majority, disagree with them. I disagree too.

All the people I know who are voting Yes would not agree with your statement. JMO
I do not care if they agree or not. I care more about people than I care about definitions.

[David_V]

As I stated.......Prop 8 is about a definition and if historically and culturally around the whole world, marriage has always stood for a union between one man and one woman, why change it.
Why not? There is no reason to stick to the old, outdated, definition.

This Prop 8 is not about rights just definition clarification....
I vehemently disagree. Prop 8 is about forcing a chosen religious belief on a minority. There is this little concept, much forgotten by the religious right, that was a new concept at the time this country was founded. I'm amazed that so many people either don't know about it, or ignore it.

What is it you ask?

The protection of the minority from the tyranny of the majority.

Here we have a perfect example of a large group trying to force their beliefs on a minority. It's immoral and unAmerican.

[Ironhorse]

As I stated.......Prop 8 is about a definition and if historically and culturally around the whole world, marriage has always stood for a union between one man and one woman, why change it. This Prop 8 is not about rights just definition clarification. We have added new words to our dictionaries, so like I stated before....choose another word.

You want a definitition, here's the definition:

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/marriage

Main Entry: mar·riage
Pronunciation: \ˈmer-ij, ˈma-rij\
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English mariage, from Anglo-French, from marier to marry
Date: 14th century
1 a (1): the state of being united to a person of the opposite sex as husband or wife in a consensual and contractual relationship recognized by law (2): the state of being united to a person of the same sex in a relationship like that of a traditional marriage <same-sex marriage> b: the mutual relation of married persons : wedlock c: the institution whereby individuals are joined in a marriage
2: an act of marrying or the rite by which the married status is effected ; especially : the wedding ceremony and attendant festivities or formalities
3: an intimate or close union <the marriage of painting and poetry — J. T. Shawcross>

**What's that I see? 1a(2) shows the state of being united to a person of the same sex in this definition, lo and behold!!!!!! Right out of Merriam Webster!

[BGW]

Being able to legally marry comes with some pluses. Like being able to check the box on the good ol' IRS Form 1040 Married Filing Jointly. There are more credits and deductions to be had when filing at this status. There are the rights of survivorship that seem to be able to be legally handled via other routes such as power of attornies etc., but is not exactly true.

There is also just the fact of knowing a person can go to the court house and get a marriage license if one so chose---without discrimination.

If your church does not already advocate homosexuality then it most likely never will and I seriously doubt gay or lesbian couples will be lining up outside of such a church asking to be married there; and that church's doctrine will remain intact.

Even if California does continue to allow same sex marriages, 10% of California's closet doors are not going to suddenly fly open and our streets will not suddenly be filled with homosexuals for all to see... Just in case you hadn't noticed, California has been referred to as the homosexual capital of America for well over 20 years.

20+ years is in my mind plenty of time to accept change.

[only1alphafemale]

That kinda answers the next question I was going to have, because the more I read, the more confused I seem to get.

The question is: where is it written that marriage is solely between a man and a woman?

Myst, I'm sorry your getting confused. Moral and ethical, religious issues are that way arent they!!!! Never easy..........<sigh> but in answer to your question I have posted a few links for you.......

You can start here ; http://www.lectlaw.com/def2/m087.htm

and then with the US CODE to read the definition;

http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/1/7.html and do further study and research from there.

Another article regading this debate can be found here at Legal and Courts;

http://www.onenewsnow.com/Legal/Default.aspx?id=162856

Hope this helps, however as far as the moral or ethical side of whats right and or wrong? There isnt going to be an easy answer....... but its been proven through time that many laws have been outdated and eventually get challenged and changed, and usually for the betterment of mankind :grin:

[yosemitewriter]

Is that where the term "flamer" came from????


[QUOTE=Ironhorse;61726
In the year 390, the Christian emperors Valentinian II, Theodoisus and Arcadius declared homosexual sex to be illegal and those who were guilty of it were condemned to be burned alive in front of the public.[/QUOTE]

[yosemitewriter]

I applaud the efforts of some people in this group who are trying to bring the Prop 8 supporters into the 21st Century. Good luck with that....



As I stated.......Prop 8 is about a definition and if historically and culturally around the whole world, marriage has always stood for a union between one man and one woman, why change it.

[Sewmaui]

Parents who are wondering where supporters of Prop 8 see that same sex marriage can be taught in school, just look at (D) in the California Education Code 51890

http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/displaycode?section=edc&group=51001-52000&file=51890-51891

[Red Mule]

I went to the education link provided and did a search for gay. No Luck Searched for homosexual. Still no luck. So, then I search for sex. Nothing. So, I read thje whole thing. Still nothing. I don't understand what point was being made.

So, I still don't get the suggested link between Prop 8 and our schools.

Even IF there was one I couldn't find, I remember that in my school when the Dare program was being taught and a family objected, that student was allowed to spend that time in the Library or Computer Lab rather than being subjected to something her family disagreed with.

[Sewmaui]

I went to the education link provided and did a search for gay. No Luck Searched for homosexual. Still no luck. So, then I search for sex. Nothing. So, I read thje whole thing. Still nothing. I don't understand what point was being made.

So, I still don't get the suggested link between Prop 8 and our schools.

Even IF there was one I couldn't find, I remember that in my school when the Dare program was being taught and a family objected, that student was allowed to spend that time in the Library or Computer Lab rather than being subjected to something her family disagreed with.


(D) Family health and child development, including the legal and
financial aspects and responsibilities of marriage and parenthood.

Its right there....what is to stop a teacher from teaching the way they want or what is to stop a school from forcing teachers to teach about other marriages.

[BGW]

Re: (D) Family health and child development, including the legal and
financial aspects and responsibilities of marriage and parenthood.


If my memory serves me,this was the premise of my Family Living Class. Most of you took such a class--it's the one where they made you carry around an egg (or other such silly object) for a week to teach you about parenting.

It was also the class where the teacher paired us off as 'couples' to teach us how to deal with various aspects of marriage like budgeting bills and what jobs pay more than others and how hard it is on a family when one spouse goes to college while the other is out in the work force etc.

These classrooms often times did not have an equal split of boys and girls and sometimes girls were paired with girl or boys were paired with boys to get the excercise completed. Yes, there were a few seconds of blushing giggles, but then the joke was over and the grade and the learning became the important goal.

At no time were we taught the more intimate aspects of relationships. We did get a basic anatomy lesson, and how an egg gets fertilized lesson, and a lesson about adoption when the egg fertilization method didn't work. For this lesson, we were told that not all couples can conceive a child naturally and often times choose to adopt.

This was also the class that parents could choose whether their child would take the class at all or just be excused from certain sections.

Now, I am confused, which part of this class is found objectional?

The part where kids are taught that not all couples can conceive a child naturally? The part where statistics makes it impossible to not have a same sex pairing in the class, or the part where the parent has control over what their child is taught in that class?

[only1alphafemale]

(D) Family health and child development, including the legal and
financial aspects and responsibilities of marriage and parenthood.

Its right there....what is to stop a teacher from teaching the way they want or what is to stop a school from forcing teachers to teach about other marriages.

We can *speculate* all day long about the *what if's* ~ and granted each teacher does bring a certain amount of their own style of teaching to their class rooms. However what to prevent a teacher from calling your child stupid? or making racist comments to them? or- or- or- ?????

I do NOT see where financial aspects and responsibilities are different between straights and gays either ~ So why do you think there will be a *difference* in whats taught regarding this information?

I stated further down in a thread in this post, and I will state it again- ~ "A nuptial ceremony ~ Two people who are voluntarily joined by a ceremony in a close and intimate union ~" ( source The Sage )

A "COUPLE". It does not signify or infer homosexuality. It does NOT discriminate for or against homosexuality. It states a couple!

A couples *financial aspects* or a couples *responsibilities* does not dictate as to which sex this couple is or is not.... It simply teaches the "responsibilities and financial aspects" of what a *couple* face.

Heterosexual or Homosexual is NOT stated or made as a point of singling out or giving or leading to referencing to one or the other, UNLESS YOU CHOOSE to read it that way~ with the fear of the *what if's* game.

Have you read the Proposition?

To discriminate, is wrong. To discriminate in schools is wrong. To single out a livestyle is discrimination. Our schools are not allowed to discriminate. I have greater faith in those that teach in our schools, than to think they will single out a "couples" lifestyle to make a point, as this would be discrimination.

Once again, I will state, as others here have stated! THIS IS NOT AN ISSUE ABOUT SEX ! or whether or not we AGREE with HOMOSEXUALITY and how they have SEX! Its their rights that they should be entitled to, just like we are entitled to if we spend our years building a life with our mates as a couple!! Marriage gives us those rights legally. THATS WHAT THIS ISSUE IS ABOUT!

So can we all try to keep our own phobic fears out of here, and base the issue on what the prop actually STATES it DOES do ?

[cattledoggiemoon]

Too busy -So refreshing to see good strong intelligent debate.

Ooooppsss I completely screwed up with my typing.. I mean No on Prop 8!

[kellieflan]

No debate - NO on PROP 8!

[dancingqueen]

In this mornings Fresno Bee they said that Prop 8 is gaining support. I think it is probably due to all of those King and King TV ads. Some people get all of their information from the television, I think that is called tunnel vision.

[jakobscalpel]

This is really a pretty simple issue. If we believe in democracy then the will of the majority is what is right. Let's say, as an example, that prop 8 passes (and is not invalidated as unconstitutional by the judiciary). What then? Well, gay couples still have every right to remain in California. If a legally recognized marriage is so important to them they can simply vote with their feet and move to more accepting locales. I'm tired of minorities proclaiming their victimization supersedes the will of the majority. That is not a democracy. I agree that there are moral and personal freedom issues at stake at the individual level but that doesn't change the fact that the majority rules.

This is why I wish our whole governmental system was inverted, so these decisions could be made at the city or county level and would have legal precedence over the state or federals.

No on Prop 8.

[Yosemite Joy]

Parents who are wondering where supporters of Prop 8 see that same sex marriage can be taught in school, just look at (D) in the California Education Code 51890

http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/displaycode?section=edc&group=51001-52000&file=51890-51891

The real point here is that NOTHING about sexuality can be taught to your children in school without your consent. It is California law.

The California Teachers Association, and California School Board's Association are against Prop 8. They are crying foul after the references in the commericials, fliers, etc, stating that homosexuality will be taught in school.

How can you debate something that is JUST NOT TRUE. There is solid evidence that this claim of homosexuality will be taught in school UNFOUNDED, ILLEGAL, and NOT FACTUAL. Why keep stating that it is? Who has told you these falsehoods, and why would you choose to believe lies?



Spread the Word
Facts v. Fiction

Don’t be misled. Watch our ad to learn the why Californians oppose Prop 8.

Proposition 8 puts discrimination into our Constitution. It would inject government into private lives. It undermines equal protections under our laws.

Here’s what’s fiction and what’s fact:

Fiction: Prop 8 doesn’t discriminate against gays.

* Fact: Prop 8 is simple: it eliminates the rights for same-sex couples to marry. Prop 8 would deny equal protections and write discrimination against one group of people—lesbian and gay people—into our state constitution.

Fiction: Teaching children about same-sex marriage will happen here unless we pass Prop 8.

* Fact: Not one word in Prop 8 mentions education, and no child can be forced, against the will of their parents, to be taught anything about health and family issues at school. California law prohibits it, and the Yes on 8 campaign knows they are lying. Sacramento Superior Court Judge Timothy Frawley has already ruled that this claim by Prop 8 proponents is “false and misleading.” The Orange County Register, traditionally one of the most conservative newspapers in the state, says this claim is false. So do lawyers for the California Department of Education.

Fiction: Churches could lose their tax-exemption status.

* Fact: Nothing in Prop 8 would force churches to do anything. In fact, the court decision regarding marriage specifically says “no religion will be required to change its religious policies or practices with regard to same-sex couples, and no religious officiant will be required to solemnize a marriage in contravention of his or her religious beliefs.”

Fiction: A Massachusetts case about a parent’s objection to the school curriculum will happen here.

* Fact: Unlike Massachusetts, California gives parents an absolute right to remove their kids and opt-out of teaching on health and family instruction they don’t agree with. The opponents know that California law already covers this and Prop 8 won’t affect it, so they bring up an irrelevant case in Massachusetts.

Fiction: Four Activist Judges in San Francisco…

* Fact: Prop 8 is not about courts and judges, it’s about eliminating a fundamental right. Judges didn’t grant the right, the constitution guarantees the right. Proponents of Prop 8 use an outdated and stale argument that judges aren’t supposed to protect rights and freedoms. This campaign is about whether Californians, right now, in 2008 are willing to amend the constitution for the sole purpose of eliminating a fundamental right for one group of citizens.

Fiction: People can be sued over personal beliefs.

* Fact: California’s laws already prohibit discrimination against anyone based on race, religion, gender, or sexual orientation. This has nothing to do with marriage.

Fiction: Pepperdine University supports the Yes on 8 campaign.

* Fact: The university has publicly disassociated itself from Professor Richard Peterson of Pepperdine University, who is featured in the ad, and has asked to not be identified in the Yes on 8 advertisements.

Fiction: Unless Prop 8 passes, CA parents won’t have the right to object to what their children are taught in school.

* Fact: California law clearly gives parents and guardians broad authority to remove their children from any health instruction if it conflicts with their religious beliefs or moral convictions.

Regardless of how you feel about the issue, we should not eliminate fundamental rights for ANY Californians. Please vote NO on Prop 8.


Here are the video's for people who get all their information from television ads:

http://www.noonprop8.com/action/engage-online/videos

[citizen]

It's not all about you and what you feel is right for you. Others can make their own decisions. Read the proposition and see if it's really in our best interest. Just because you don't believe gay marriage should be legal, you shouldn't automatically vote YES on 8. It is poorly written and they are scaring people into voting for it by spreading lies. I am against discrimination of any kind. Gay people are being discriminated against just like we discriminated against black people. What if we decided 50 years ago that black people couldn't get married? People are people and should all be treated equally, no matter age, race, sex, sexual preference, religion, hair color, etc. For me, it's a very easy decision. NO ON 8! NO ON DISCRIMINATION OF ANY KIND!!!

[David_V]

(D) Family health and child development, including the legal and
financial aspects and responsibilities of marriage and parenthood.

Its right there....what is to stop a teacher from teaching the way they want or what is to stop a school from forcing teachers to teach about other marriages.
That would be a good thing. There will be children in many classes that have two mommies or two daddies. The marriage of those two people have the same responsibilities that any other marriage would. Parenthood is the same way. Kids need to know that not every household conforms to the fairytale of the 1950's.

Learning that homosexuals exist has not, and will not, cause anyone to become a homosexual. When children learn about it at an earlier age, they will most likely grow up to not be bigoted on the topic.

[Yosemite Joy]

I know I stated this before, but interracial couples couldn't be married until 1969! There were similar arguments and scare tactics to prevent overturning of anti-miscegenation laws.

"In 1965, Virginia trial court Judge Leon Bazile, who heard their original case, refused to reconsider his decision. Instead, he defended racial segregation, writing:

Almighty God created the races white, black, yellow, and red, and he placed them on separate continents. And but for the interference with his arrangement there would be no cause for such marriages. The fact that he separated the races shows that he did not intend for the races to mix.[17]"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-miscegenation_laws

[Red Mule]

We are lucky this is not a absolute democracy where every right and law is subject to any given local majority opinion. Otherwise we would still have slavery in many states. We would be required to belong to certain religions. There would be some areas of the country where girls would not be educated beyond the knowledge required to get pregnant and keep house. In this country we have a Bill of Rights. Even when it is ignored, as by the slave states, at least it give a basis for overturning bad laws.

I told a forum friend recently that I was about finished posting to this topic. And. I probably am, unless I see something else that so outrages me that I feel forced to reply. However, this morning I was reminded of something I think might have a bearing on the subject.

Back in the stone ages, when I attended school, I was a member of a debating team. I learned many lessons there. The first one was that I had better be willing and able to provide a recognized source for any statement I made. But, even more important, was when we were preparing; we didn’t know which side we would have to support. We were only informed at the last minute before the debate started.

Where this is important here, is that we were forced to prepare to defend both sides of the argument. If we couldn’t empathize with both sides, we would not be likely to succeed. I would suggest at least one debating course should be required in school today. Think how much better equipped the next generation would be if they learned the importance of looking at both sides of every question. Even deeply held beliefs can benefit from being able to see the other side.

What if a resident of ancient Sodom didn’t agree with laws made to conform to their majority beliefs? They didn’t have our Bill Of Rights, so he or she was probably out of luck. That resident might end up offering his daughter to the mob to protect visiting angels. Or, they would have to leave town without looking back, or be turned into a pillar of salt.

OOPS! I kind of strayed from my debate point, but I just can’t make myself delete the last paragraph. :)

[monkey]

I just received a phone call from someone that asked for me by name. She then said they were with "Yes on Prop 8" I told her that I believe in equality for all people and when I asked how she got me name and phone number, she refused to tell me. I told her my feelings on the issue and asked for her home telephone number so that I could make an annoying, prejudiced call to her when she is relaxing. For some reason she declined.

[only1alphafemale]

I agree with the point you make Red Mule, about the ability to debate, and see both sides! I can see both sides here. However, ( I use that instead of *But!) lol ;)

After both sides are considered and heard, a decision must be made. Hopefully its a decision that is based on well informed and correct information, and not just one from fear, or false TV ads etc.

I really hope that everyone here who is still making a decision regarding Prop 8, does their own research into the true facts, and doesnt take a certain groups *words*, will determine that which is biased information, and unfounded statements, ( which have been refuted so many times just here in this forum~!) with actual facts, simply because they choose not to research the issue for themselves, or are basing their choices simply on the words of a pastor leading his flock (which dont get me wrong, I am NOT criticizing, but we still have to use our own thoughts there too! ) Religious beliefs are one common source being stated for those in favor of Prop 8, from what I have read here in this topic, basing it more on a moral of scriptures? instead of the rights that should be applied to each and every one of us?

Has anyone here read the book the Beautiful Side of Evil? Its an eye opener and one I highly recommend~

[Edana]

I can only speak for myself here. I'm not out to hurt or insult anyone with my personal beliefs. Honestly, I dont care if gay people want to be married, and I wont be severely affected when they do. Live and let live. But accepting someone elses beliefs is not the same as condoning them. When it comes to a political situation where we're asked to state our beliefs, I have an obligation to support what I believe. I'm not getting nasty about it, and Im a little offended that so many people here are so quick to call names and make assumptions about others simply because they do not agree. I'm finding it all a little hypocritical. When the time comes we will all cast our votes and one side will be victorious while another sulks. But both sides will feel confident that they stood up for what they believed, and life will probably go on about the same no matter which way the vote swings. It doesnt have to be anything more than that.

[kiyasmom]

My favorite tee is - Now... Can I vote on your marriage?

[kiyasmom]

My two cents - if the straights are sooooo concerned about the sanctity of marriage why not spend the same time and money they are spending on their hate - to determine why thier divorce rate is about 50%. or why most of the preditors are white heterosexual males or.... or... or - I think there are plenty of other places their money could be spent providing good rather than spreading hate.

[beautiful_mess38]

Pata, you crack me up. When I read "fudge packing" yes I laughed. And you know me..."my mind is always in the gutter but I keep my gutter clean" lol

And you know I luv ya girlfriend but;;;;;most men love watching two or more girls go at it. If you ever come across a mans library of porn look at what the contents are. What do they say for themselves "hey I'm a guy, can't help it". Now I'm not saying all men I'm saying most men.

I'm also going to be honest and say (and I think most of us has) thought about 2 men having sex. And yes it's icky. However; my mind ( always being in the clean gutter) can stay away from that vision. But yes I've thought of it before. It does not change my mind about gay people. Hey, its thier lives whom am I or anyone else to say how they live it.

And there are straight people being man and woman married or not that have icky sex too. You know the fudge packing kind and other stuff... So its not just gay people.

Now girlfriend you keep your mind in the heavens and the beautiful flowers and out of the icky porn sex...cause thats why I luv ya.
I will jump into the realm of icky porn sex to update you every once in awhile. Don't think you can handle large doses..lol
I will only update you on this subject with a martini in one hand and a cigar in the other.

I've already said my views on prop 8 so I'm not going to go into that again.

Any yes I'm still laughing and thanks for the vision lol you know me I can handle it.

[kellieflan]

Beautiful, darling, can we find another way to refer to gay mens' sex? I really find the term offensive, it upsets my sensibilities on the level of appropriate language, civil rights, personal privacy AND also upsets my stomach and my deep love of chocolate. I know you were just softening the use, Beautiful, and expressing fondness and understanding for Pata, but can we please either (a) get back to useful debate on the Prop 8 topic or (b) close this thread or (c) agree not to use the term? I find the epithet extremely rude and unnecessary.
Por favor. rolleyes:

[Dodgergirl]

To me, this all comes down to a matter of equality. By voting Yes on Prop 8, one is saying that because someone is gay, they are not to be considered of equal value to myself or others. And that's just not right.

:yt:

:applause:


I've been out of town for a few days and have been reading this thread tonight, wow, just about everything has been said.
On that note, I'll just say I'm well informed on this one, both as an educator, a christian and a mother... My vote will be No on 8.

[David_V]

....On that note, I'll just say I'm well informed on this one, both as an educator, a christian and a mother... My vote will be Yes on 8.
Then I'm confused. You applauded, and agreed with, someone that was speaking out AGAINST prop 8, yet you are going to vote for it?

[Red Mule]

OK, so I said I wouldn't post any more. I was wrong.

I'm hoping Dodger Girl just mis-spoke. These propositions often get confusing. A vote yes is often a vote against. That confuses me now and then.

To clarify: The law now allows gays to get married. Prop 8 wants to change the law and take away that right. So, if you think gays should have the same rights as anyone else, you should vote NO on Prop 8.

[monkey]

OK, so I said I wouldn't post any more. I was wrong.

I'm hoping Dodger Girl just mis-spoke. These propositions often get confusing. A vote yes is often a vote against. That confuses me now and then.

To clarify: The law now allows gays to get married. Prop 8 wants to change the law and take away that right. So, if you think gays should have the same rights as anyone else, you should vote NO on Prop 8.

Kind of reminds me of many years ago when I got a HIV test. When I went back for the results, I was taken into a private room and told the result were negative. Freaked me out for a second there until I realised it meant I did NOT have the virus which was a positive thing. Whew!!!!

[Mibrew]

NO ON #8 , if ya don't like the wording (Marriage) then change that, don't hurt/hate the Gays because they want to be life partners with the same sex, were all equal, arnt we?

Sad....

[beautiful_mess38]

Kelliefan sorry if my above post offended you. However; I needed to use the term the Pata wrote. It wouldn't have mattered if i used ***** *******, you would have known what it meant. When your on forums like this sometimes you need to read past the offensive parts or not read at all. It's like watching tv.

Speaking of tv, who watched Greys Anatomy last night? And for you people who are voting yes on prop 8 what did you think of it.

One of the gentleman on here posted above about gays on tv, and yes you see alot of it now. But I never saw what I did last night on Grays Anatomy. Do you feel they stepped over the line. I felt it was unnessecary. Why did we need to know that and watch it. They showed to gals expiermenting, what if it was guys then how would we feel? The kids are out of school this week. I had my 11 year old and 8 year old watching it. I'm a very hard person to offend. But last night that show made me uncomfortable because my kids were watching it. Do I now need to explain to my 11 year old what it was about? Or do I explain it when she asks?

The show Brothers and Sisters has 2 gay guys. They are married and it shows them kissing, nothing what Grays Anatomy did last night and I hope they never do being I love this show.

For you people voting yes on prop 8 how do you feel about gays, sex and tv?

[cattledoggiemoon]

Ooppppss I totaly screwed up on my post..

I meant to type No on Prop 8 not Go... ack!

[Dodgergirl]

OK, so I said I wouldn't post any more. I was wrong.

I'm hoping Dodger Girl just mis-spoke. These propositions often get confusing. A vote yes is often a vote against. That confuses me now and then.

To clarify: The law now allows gays to get married. Prop 8 wants to change the law and take away that right. So, if you think gays should have the same rights as anyone else, you should vote NO on Prop 8.


Whoops thats what I get for posting after 13 hours on the road....

Just seeing who's paying attention.... ;)

[Red Mule]

B_Mess 38 brought up a slightly different question on the question of TV fare, rather than Prop 8. I'll start another thread where I can respond.

[Sandman]

On Sunda<wbr>y Novem<wbr>ber 2nd At 2:<wbr>00pm There<wbr> Will Be A No On Propo<wbr>sitio<wbr>n 8 Demon<wbr>strat<wbr>ion At The Corne<wbr>r Of 12th Avenu<wbr>e And Mall Drive<wbr> In Hanfo<wbr>rd. Pleas<wbr>e Come And Show Your Suppo<wbr>rt! Sprea<wbr>d The Word!<wbr> Come Decla<wbr>re Yours<wbr>elf! Marri<wbr>age Is About<wbr> Love.

Love Does Not Discr<wbr>imina<wbr>te! Lets End This War On Love And Dismi<wbr>ss The Hate!<wbr> Again<wbr>,

Votin<wbr>g Yes on Prop8<wbr> is fine,<wbr> go ahead<wbr> and do it! I'm sure you'<wbr>ll have plent<wbr>y of suppo<wbr>rt and justi<wbr>ficat<wbr>ion in your lifet<wbr>ime to conti<wbr>nuall<wbr>y feel moral<wbr> in denyi<wbr>ng civil<wbr> liber<wbr>ties to a selec<wbr>t group<wbr>. It's been done befor<wbr>e, here are a few simil<wbr>ar situa<wbr>tions<wbr> that I know you "Yes on 8" suppo<wbr>rters<wbr> would<wbr> have felt moral<wbr>ly justi<wbr>fied in your lifet<wbr>ime advoc<wbr>ating<wbr>.


"<wbr>Vote No on Aboli<wbr>tion of Slave<wbr>ry"
Human<wbr> labor<wbr> is a key part of our econo<wbr>my, if we remov<wbr>e this eleme<wbr>nt what will happe<wbr>n to our agric<wbr>ultur<wbr>al indus<wbr>tries<wbr>? We are a devel<wbr>oping<wbr> natio<wbr>n and canno<wbr>t affor<wbr>d a major<wbr> set back that can hinde<wbr>r our Natio<wbr>nal Secur<wbr>ity. Vote No on Aboli<wbr>tion to save your count<wbr>ry econo<wbr>mic turmo<wbr>il. Imagi<wbr>ne spend<wbr>ing twice<wbr> as much for the same food,<wbr> will your house<wbr> survi<wbr>ve? How will you expla<wbr>in to your child<wbr>ren that you can'<wbr>t affor<wbr>d dinne<wbr>r tonig<wbr>ht? Remem<wbr>ber, all obedi<wbr>ent slave<wbr>s recei<wbr>ve human<wbr> treat<wbr>ment and witho<wbr>ut our indus<wbr>try they would<wbr> roam in pover<wbr>ty and disea<wbr>se back in their<wbr> home land.<wbr> We are provi<wbr>ding a lifes<wbr>tyle for them they would<wbr> have never<wbr> been able to affor<wbr>d back from their<wbr> origi<wbr>natin<wbr>g home.<wbr> Vote No to Aboli<wbr>sh Slave<wbr>ry! It's a matte<wbr>r of Natio<wbr>nal Secur<wbr>ity.


"<wbr>Vote Yes on the 3/<wbr>5ths Law"
Now that "<wbr>Aboli<wbr>tion of Slave<wbr>ry" passe<wbr>d it's time for us to step up and take contr<wbr>ol of our count<wbr>ry befor<wbr>e an unedu<wbr>cated<wbr> popul<wbr>ation<wbr> contr<wbr>ols the bit. Yes on the 3/<wbr>5ths law limit<wbr>s all perso<wbr>ns of Afric<wbr>an desce<wbr>nt only 3/<wbr>5ths a vote.<wbr> With the vast black<wbr> popul<wbr>ation<wbr> being<wbr> unedu<wbr>cated<wbr>, they will be arbit<wbr>raril<wbr>y votin<wbr>g for amend<wbr>ments<wbr> and polit<wbr>ical figur<wbr>es that they could<wbr>n't possi<wbr>bly under<wbr>stand<wbr>. They will recei<wbr>ve all their<wbr> civil<wbr> liber<wbr>ties and the right<wbr> to vote,<wbr> but becau<wbr>se of their<wbr> popul<wbr>ation<wbr> it is impor<wbr>tant that we get equal<wbr> say in who is in charg<wbr>e of our count<wbr>ry.


Vote Yes on the 3/<wbr>5ths Law!

"<wbr>Vote No to Women<wbr>'s Suffr<wbr>age"
It is a matte<wbr>r of moral<wbr>ity.


The Bible<wbr> clear<wbr>ly state<wbr>s that women<wbr> shoul<wbr>d ask their<wbr> husba<wbr>nds for knowl<wbr>edge.


Join with us to rebuk<wbr>e this trans<wbr>gress<wbr>ion. If we allow<wbr> women<wbr> to openl<wbr>y and delib<wbr>erate<wbr>ly go again<wbr>st the word of God, what next?<wbr> What else will we have to openl<wbr>y allow<wbr>? Studi<wbr>es have shown<wbr> that cultu<wbr>res with predo<wbr>minan<wbr>t femal<wbr>e figur<wbr>es alway<wbr>s lead their<wbr> civil<wbr>izati<wbr>ons into heath<wbr>enism<wbr>. Start<wbr>ing with the Nativ<wbr>e Ameri<wbr>cans and their<wbr> mytho<wbr>logy,<wbr> did you know they had a women<wbr>-<wbr>centr<wbr>ic socie<wbr>ty? If this passe<wbr>s schoo<wbr>ls will be force<wbr>d to teach<wbr> anti-<wbr>Bibli<wbr>cal moral<wbr>s that women<wbr> are equal<wbr> to men. Schoo<wbr>ls are alrea<wbr>dy repor<wbr>ting a spike<wbr> in viole<wbr>nce.


If we allow<wbr> this,<wbr> what else will be allow<wbr>ed?

"<wbr>Vote no on Gay Marri<wbr>age"
It is a matte<wbr>r of moral<wbr>ity.


The Bible<wbr> clear<wbr>ly state<wbr>s that homos<wbr>exual<wbr>lity is immor<wbr>al.


Join with us to rebuk<wbr>e this trans<wbr>gress<wbr>ion. If we allow<wbr> homos<wbr>exual<wbr>s to openl<wbr>y and delib<wbr>erate<wbr>ly go again<wbr>st the word of God, what next?<wbr> What else will we have to openl<wbr>y allow<wbr>? Studi<wbr>es have shown<wbr> that state<wbr>s with legal<wbr>ized homos<wbr>exual<wbr>ity alway<wbr>s leads<wbr> to moral<wbr> decay<wbr>. Start<wbr>ing with Massa<wbr>chuse<wbr>tts, did you know they legal<wbr>ized gay marri<wbr>age? If this passe<wbr>s schoo<wbr>ls will be force<wbr>d to teach<wbr> anti-<wbr>Bibli<wbr>cal moral<wbr>s that homos<wbr>exual<wbr>s are equal<wbr> to all peopl<wbr>e. Schoo<wbr>ls are alrea<wbr>dy repor<wbr>ting situa<wbr>tions<wbr> of moral<wbr> disse<wbr>nt.


If we allow<wbr> this,<wbr> what else will be allow<wbr>ed?

.<wbr>.<wbr>.<wbr>just food for thoug<wbr>ht

10 Reaso<wbr>​ns Why Gay Marri<wbr>​age is Wrong<wbr>​,​​ accor<wbr>​ding to its oppon<wbr>​ents:<wbr>​​

1) Being<wbr>​ gay is not natur<wbr>​al.
-​​​​And real Ameri<wbr>​cans alway<wbr>​s rejec<wbr>​t unnat<wbr>​ural thing<wbr>​s like eyegl<wbr>​asses<wbr>​,​​​​ polye<wbr>​s​ter,​​ ​and air condi<wbr>​tioni<wbr>​ng,​​​​ tatto<wbr>​os,​​​​ pierc<wbr>​ings and silic<wbr>​on breas<wbr>​ts.​​​.​​​.

2) Gay marri<wbr>​age will encou<wbr>​rage peopl<wbr>​e to be gay!
-In the same way that hangi<wbr>​ng aroun<wbr>​d tall peopl<wbr>​e will encou<wbr>​rage you to be tall.

3) Legal<wbr>​izing<wbr>​ gay marri<wbr>​age will open the door to all kinds<wbr>​ of crazy<wbr>​ behav<wbr>​ior.
-​​Peop​le may even wish to marry<wbr>​ their<wbr>​ pets becau<wbr>​se a dog has legal<wbr>​ stand<wbr>​ing and can sign a marri<wbr>​age contr<wbr>​act.​​​ Lamps<wbr>​ are next.<wbr>​​ I love lamp.<wbr>​​.​​.