CA Proposition 4: Waiting Period & Parental Notification Before Termination Of Minors

[Sandman]

WAITING PERIOD AND PARENTAL NOTIFICATION BEFORE TERMINATION OF MINOR’S PREGNANCY.
INITIATIVE CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENT.



Changes California Constitution to prohibit abortion for unemancipated minor until 48 hours after physician notifies minor’s parent or legal guardian.
Permits notification to certain adult relatives if doctor reports parent to law enforcement or Child Protective Services.
Provides notification exceptions for medical emergency or parental waiver.
Permits courts to waive notice based on clear and convincing evidence of minor’s maturity or best interests.
Mandates reporting requirements, including reports from physicians regarding abortions on minors.
Authorizes damages against physicians for violation.
Requires minor’s consent to abortion, with exceptions.

Summary of Legislative Analyst’s Estimate of Net State and Local Government Fiscal Impact:



Potential unknown net state costs of several million dollars annually for health and social services programs, court administration, and state health agency administration combined.

http://www.voterguide.sos.ca.gov/title-sum/prop4-title-sum.htm

[David_V]

I've voted NO! on this several times. When are they going to get the message that forcing girls to tell their parents, which may include the parent that got them pregnant in the first place, is absolutely wrong. Young women have been killed because of laws like this.

[citizen]

Once again I agree with David. I'm voting NO.

[Yosemite Joy]

No, No, No, No. (I think this is the fourth time?)

[Red Mule]

I think this is just another situation where many people want to see the world as they wish it was, rather than the way it really is.

These are the same people that abhor abortion, but won't support sex education and contraceptives that might have saved many young girls from having to make such a difficult choice in the first place. They don't want to admit that both biologically and culturally, young people are being pushed to find life mates and sometimes make a mistake that can ruin, one way or the other, the remainder of their lives.

That doesn't even consider rape, date rape, incest rape and all the other rapes a female (girl or woman) might not consider HER mistake. She is just being victimized again by a system that could force her to suffer the lifetime consequences of a pregancy because of her parent's beliefs. When they are dead and gone, she will still be paying the price.

[kellieflan]

No way, not tomorrow, not today, not Tuesday.

[Mysteefied]

I agree with what has been said here....and I have 3 teenage daughters, I'd rather they be safe!!!

[mary oleary]

I've voted NO! on this several times. When are they going to get the message that forcing girls to tell their parents, which may include the parent that got them pregnant in the first place, is absolutely wrong. Young women have been killed because of laws like this.

Are you suggesting that a girl who may be impregnated by her father is better off getting a secret abortion?

[mary oleary]

I agree with what has been said here....and I have 3 teenage daughters, I'd rather they be safe!!!

Are you suggesting that your teenage girls would not be safe if you were notified that they were getting an abortion?

[mary oleary]

I think this is just another situation where many people want to see the world as they wish it was, rather than the way it really is.

These are the same people that abhor abortion, but won't support sex education and contraceptives that might have saved many young girls from having to make such a difficult choice in the first place. They don't want to admit that both biologically and culturally, young people are being pushed to find life mates and sometimes make a mistake that can ruin, one way or the other, the remainder of their lives.

That doesn't even consider rape, date rape, incest rape and all the other rapes a female (girl or woman) might not consider HER mistake. She is just being victimized again by a system that could force her to suffer the lifetime consequences of a pregancy because of her parent's beliefs. When they are dead and gone, she will still be paying the price.

"young people are being pushed to find life mates"?
What are the lifetime "consequences of pregnancy"?

How many women ( or men) do you know that are happy they had an abortion as a teenager? Or are glad they are not suffering the consequences of pregnancy

How many do you know that wish they coud undue their abortion?

How about a poll for that? because I know at least 6 women who wish they didn't abort thier babies, and I don't know any that are glad they had abortions.

How many young teenage girls have abortions because their older boyfriend pressure them to?

[mary oleary]

During the debate on the floor of the U.S. Senate on the Hatch-Eagleton Pro-Life Amendment in 1983, the U.S. Bureau of Vital Statistics provided the data on such deaths. Its reports showed that you must go back to the pre-Penicillin era to find more than 1,000 maternal deaths per year from illegal and legal abortions combined. The precipitous drop in maternal deaths in the 1950s and ‘60s occurred while abortions were still illegal. Before the first state legalized abortions in 1966, the total deaths were down to 120 per year. By 1972, before the Supreme Court legalized abortion in all 50 states, it was down to 39 per year in the entire U.S. Since legalization, the slow decline has continued, so that now the only difference is that more mothers are dying from legal, rather than illegal abortions.



U.S. BUREAU OF VITAL STATISTICS CENTER FOR DISEASE CONTROL

Reported Maternal Deaths from YEAR Illegal Abortion in U.S.

1940 1,679
1950 316
1960 289
1966 120 First State Legalized in 1967
1970 128
1972 39 Supreme Court Decision in 1973
1977 21
1981 8

[mary oleary]

And under 18 years? What does she think of you, her parents? Should she tell you? Sadly, few girls want to.

They think you’ll explode, condemn, reject, feel ashamed. She doesn’t want to hurt you. But she is alone, frightened, defiant, worried. Yes, but still a young girl who desperately needs your love and help. The Supreme Court ruling assures her that she can have her baby killed, can internalize all of the psychic trauma, the loneliness, the bitterness, and never know that . . .

If she had told you — Yes, you might have "exploded" initially. But then, with rare exceptions, you would have shared your tears and given her the help, support, and love she so desperately needed. To her surprise, you would not condemn, but offer all the love, help, and understanding you could in this time of trial. In my 25 years of counseling, I have found that when a girl does come to her parents and receives the help they can offer, it becomes the occasion of a real growth in maturity, self-confidence, and ability to love by the girl. She faces her responsibility and stands tall.

The family bond is strengthened by the sharing of the burden.

But no, now the tragic Supreme Court Decision can guarantee that she’ll never know that you really love her and would have helped her. Thanks to them, she can have her baby killed in secret and become disillusioned, embittered, hardened. May God have mercy on those judges for what they have done. J. Willke, Cincinnati RTL Newsletter, July 1976, p. 3

[Mysteefied]

Are you suggesting that your teenage girls would not be safe if you were notified that they were getting an abortion?

No, I'm suggesting...any teenager who was afraid of telling parents might instead go and have it done illegally, lucky for me, my daughters and I have wonderful, open communication,because I am open minded and easy for them to talk to and we discuss things rationally, but I know first hand from being around some of the teens in this town and others, that many don't have that type of communication and would absolutely do something drastic and/or dangerouse that could harm them worse than going to a regular doctor without the worry of their parents beating the crap out of them or worse!

I'm not huge on prayer, but in this case I'll make an exception, If you have daughters, I PRAY that you will re think your ideas on this!

[Mysteefied]

And under 18 years? What does she think of you, her parents? Should she tell you? Sadly, few girls want to.

They think you’ll explode, condemn, reject, feel ashamed. She doesn’t want to hurt you. But she is alone, frightened, defiant, worried. Yes, but still a young girl who desperately needs your love and help. The Supreme Court ruling assures her that she can have her baby killed, can internalize all of the psychic trauma, the loneliness, the bitterness, and never know that . . .

If she had told you — Yes, you might have "exploded" initially. But then, with rare exceptions, you would have shared your tears and given her the help, support, and love she so desperately needed. To her surprise, you would not condemn, but offer all the love, help, and understanding you could in this time of trial. In my 25 years of counseling, I have found that when a girl does come to her parents and receives the help they can offer, it becomes the occasion of a real growth in maturity, self-confidence, and ability to love by the girl. She faces her responsibility and stands tall.

The family bond is strengthened by the sharing of the burden.

But no, now the tragic Supreme Court Decision can guarantee that she’ll never know that you really love her and would have helped her. Thanks to them, she can have her baby killed in secret and become disillusioned, embittered, hardened. May God have mercy on those judges for what they have done. J. Willke, Cincinnati RTL Newsletter, July 1976, p. 3

You are living in a pollyanna world, you have never lived or dealt with the things that a huge number of people in this world have....these are the only conclusions I can jump to based on your ramblings

[Mysteefied]

During the debate on the floor of the U.S. Senate on the Hatch-Eagleton Pro-Life Amendment in 1983, the U.S. Bureau of Vital Statistics provided the data on such deaths. Its reports showed that you must go back to the pre-Penicillin era to find more than 1,000 maternal deaths per year from illegal and legal abortions combined. The precipitous drop in maternal deaths in the 1950s and ‘60s occurred while abortions were still illegal. Before the first state legalized abortions in 1966, the total deaths were down to 120 per year. By 1972, before the Supreme Court legalized abortion in all 50 states, it was down to 39 per year in the entire U.S. Since legalization, the slow decline has continued, so that now the only difference is that more mothers are dying from legal, rather than illegal abortions.



U.S. BUREAU OF VITAL STATISTICS CENTER FOR DISEASE CONTROL

Reported Maternal Deaths from YEAR Illegal Abortion in U.S.

1940 1,679
1950 316
1960 289
1966 120 First State Legalized in 1967
1970 128
1972 39 Supreme Court Decision in 1973
1977 21
1981 8

The key word here is REPORTED!!!!!!!!!!!

[dancingqueen]

I think that most teenage girls that get abortions do so because they are afraid to tell their parents that they are pregnant. They are afraid of being kicked out of the house, of being abandoned and alone. They do not realize that they have choices and that there are people and agencies there to help them. There are so many peole who tell their daughters you better never come home pregnant and if you do you are out, out of the house out of our lives. I knew a mother once who told her daughter that several times during her teenage years. When her daughter found out she was pregnant she went to the top of a 12 story hotel roof and jumped to her death. Her mother now travels all over the United States telling high school assemblies, I didn't mean what I said to my daughter. I wish I could take those words back. I wish I could have my daughter back. I am not sure what the answer is regarding parental notification. I just know that the people on this forum are not really worried that this would be an issue in their family because they have already talked about it. No, none of you want to deal with an unexpected pregnancy but how will you feel later when you find out you are dealing with the after math of an unexpected abortion. It is a hard, hard issue, with life long consequences. I am just sitting here looking at the "submit reply" button wondering do I really want to do this or should I just let it go. I know that for many of you, your minds are made up and this or any other posting is not going to change your mind. But, some parents want to know, they want the opportunity to hold their daughter in their arms and say it will be ok, we will work it out, we will figure this out together. You are not alone.

[mary oleary]

you say the key word is "reported"? Are you suggesting there are many more "unreported" injuries or deaths related to abortion?

[Mysteefied]

you say the key word is "reported"? Are you suggesting there are many more "unreported" injuries or deaths related to abortion?

I'm talking about illegal abortions, the ones that will happen if teens are required by law to tell parents.

[mary oleary]

I agree csciacca.

most parents love thier children. Most parents will love thier kids through the decision making process...some parents may even drive thier kid to the abortion clinic.

And if there as a danger to a teen from a parent then it's not because of a pregnancy. Maybe what that teen needs is intervention from the judge if the parent is abusive...how does a secret abortion save that teen?

[mary oleary]

I'm talking about illegal abortions, the ones that will happen if teens are required by law to tell parents.

so am I

U.S. BUREAU OF VITAL STATISTICS CENTER FOR DISEASE CONTROL

Reported Maternal Deaths from YEAR Illegal Abortion in U.S.

1940 1,679
1950 316
1960 289
1966 120 First State Legalized in 1967
1970 128
1972 39 Supreme Court Decision in 1973
1977 21
1981 8

what numbers are you refering to?

[yosemitewriter]

Although this is a tough subject and it isn't easy to make a clear decision, I think we should give the girl a little more credit, even if she isn't of legal age. Most of this generation is more evolved than we were as teens and I think are better able to decide for themselves what is best for them. If they are close to their parents, then they have the option of telling them. But if they really feel threatened by telling their parents, then that should have more precedence and weight than some law on the books.
Maybe we should make abortions retro-active :-))

[mary oleary]

so an average pregnant scared 15 year old girl can be trusted to make a rational, responsible decision that she can live with the rest of her life...

pregnant and scared doesn't tip you off just a bit regarding her ability to make sound judgements.

lets see, she didn't prevent conception, so her decision making abilities are already suspect, and she really wants Billy to keep liking her, after all she did put out...and she doesn't want her parents to know she is sexually active because she is afraid they will freak out...and KILL her!

yep, she is reasonable, rational and responsible enough to gather up 400.00 from her boyfriend and her allowance to make permanent decision her parents never have to know about...a secret that she will try and keep from them forever...because she thinks they might kill her, or yell at her which is just as bad, isn't it?



And her parents don't know anything is up, except that thier daughter seems a little more distant, and they don't get why she is soooo emotional about the break up with Billy...and why she gets freaked out whenever the vacuum is turned on.

[only1alphafemale]

And her parents don't know anything is up, except that thier daughter seems a little more distant, and they don't get why she is soooo emotional about the break up with Billy...and why she gets freaked out whenever the vacuum is turned on.

If a parent is as incapable of parenting as you say above, then no law is going to be effective in helping her one way or another anyway! It starts with parenting, and being involved and having your fingers on the pulse of your childs daily life if not a darned good idea then its a parents instincts !

Our children are NOT considered adults until they turn 18 by laws already established for many good reasons., one of them the inability to make good, sound choices for themselves being first and foremost.

If a child is INDEED in an abusive home, with rational fears for her life? then this needs to be brought to the proper attentions of the right authorities, and is handled by many other laws regarding *these* types of abusive issues.

I do NOT believe, that any teenage child, should be allowed to have an abortion without the active involvement/knowledge and support of a parent OR guardian.

IF a safe place is needed, because there is indeed a health risk or threat of injury, then there are already laws to deal with this, and safe places for them to go.

These are two different issues that are being tossed into the blender IMO to try to come to a compromised solution, of which there is really NO good way to go once the life of a child has been created by parents who are no more than children themselves....... Whats that adage (paraphrased ) about how it takes an entire village to raise a child?

[Red Mule]

Most of us can probably agree that abortion is a poor form of birth control. And most abortions are caused by unplanned pregnancies. So, let's all get together and work harder to stop unplanned pregnancies and this parental notification will become less necessary in the first place. Admit that "Just say NO" doesn't work.

1. Parents should open dialogues with their children at home on the subject. The more teenagers that feel able to discuss the topic at home, the more will. And, please don't assume that your teen is perfect and doesn't need this communication.
2. Schools should provide sex education too. Because too many parents will skip step 1, above.
3. Provide contraceptives to both sexes and explain over and over why and how to use them! Which would you rather see? A pregnant girl seeking an abortion or a girl that may have had sex against her parent's wishes but is not pregnant and does not have to make that abortion choice.
4. Provide Morning After pills everywhere. No matter how much we preach or how much we provide education and contraceptives, kids will still have sex and girls will get impregnated. What's more important? Punishing a girl that was victimized or just made a mistake or arguing about if a tiny clump of cells might someday be a human? You could equally argue that stopping kids from having sex is stopping the potential of a human being born.
5. Provide non-threatening and non-judgmental councilors to kids for whom all of the above failed. Maybe these adults can help form a bridge between kids in trouble and parents and/or courts as seems appropriate.
6. Provide every service possible to victims of rape, and don't think that rape only happens in dark alleys. It happens at home and it happens on what many innocent girls thought were only "dates."
7. If none of the above moves you and you are adamantly opposed to every one of these solutions, then you step up and be willing to adopt ALL unwanted births. Or, you provide the money and the support for at least the next 18 years that every one of the births requires.

Not willing to do that? Then, at least be honest, and admit that what you really want is to see these kids and their unwanted kids be punished.

[dancingqueen]

There are Crisis Resolution Homes all over the United States. They are short term care, usually up to 21 days, where a teenager 14-18 can go and live while they work issues out with their families. They stay in their own school and go to school every day (for some this may be a new experience) and they have a counselor who works with them every day and works with the family atleast 3 times a week. After all you only have 21 days to put this family back together again. Many of those beds are filled by teenage girls who told someone, the parent of a friend, a teacher, a coach, someone who knew about the program. They are not out on the street, they are safely working out this HUGE situation with their families. In all the years I did this type of work I did have one family that insisted that their daughter have an abortion and 3 months later she was pregnant again. I think there were maybe 3 other girls that with their families they decided that abotion was the only answer for them and those parents cried with their daughters when that decision was made. For all the rest, about half stayed at home and had their babies and with the help of their parents are raising those children. For the other half they stayed in our Crisis Home until we could locate a home where they could go and live and release their babies for adoption. I don't think I ever worked with anyone who stayed home during their pregnancy and then gave their child up for adoption. What about the fathers and sons. My husband is as loving as I am and probably a whole lot more tender hearted. We have had an unexpected pregnancy in our family that did not end up in abortion or adoption, thank you God that everything is working out so well for them. We have also had an unexpected pregnancy that ended in abortion and we were not told until after it had been done. My husband cried for days. He felt (even thought we had a wonderful relationship with this child and love her more than words can say) it was his fault. What had he not said to her, what had he done to make her think we would not have loved her and supported her through this difficult time. That was a couple of years ago and this sweet, tender hearted man will suffer, God only know how long, because he blames himself for his daughters abortion choice. I am not a religious fanatic. I am a parent that has delt with all sides of this issue. I will be dealing with it for my entire life because our daughter will be dealing with her choice for her entire life. I love her so much, I wish I could take her pain away.

[David_V]

Are you suggesting that a girl who may be impregnated by her father is better off getting a secret abortion?
ABSOLUTELY!

[David_V]

Are you suggesting that your teenage girls would not be safe if you were notified that they were getting an abortion?
ABSOLUTELY! I've read news reports of young women being killed or beaten by parents in this situation. The young woman would know best what to do.

[David_V]

What are the lifetime "consequences of pregnancy"?
A child.

How many women ( or men) do you know that are happy they had an abortion as a teenager?
None.

Or are glad they are not suffering the consequences of pregnancy
All of them.

How many do you know that wish they coud undue their abortion?
Many, but at a later date when they were ready to have a child. That doesn't mean that we should force them to continue a pregnancy they are not ready for.

How about a poll for that?
Do we have to take a poll on anyone's reproductive status?

[David_V]

....Since legalization, the slow decline has continued, so that now the only difference is that more mothers are dying from legal, rather than illegal abortions.
The below statistics prove you wrong.

U.S. BUREAU OF VITAL STATISTICS CENTER FOR DISEASE CONTROL

Reported Maternal Deaths from YEAR Illegal Abortion in U.S.

1940 1,679
1950 316
1960 289
1966 120 First State Legalized in 1967
1970 128
1972 39 Supreme Court Decision in 1973
1977 21
1981 8

[David_V]

And under 18 years? What does she think of you, her parents? Should she tell you? Sadly, few girls want to....
No young woman wants to. She is the one that knows her parents the best and if it is SAFE for her to tell, or not. I care more about the young woman and her future than any supposed parents "rights."

[David_V]

...how does a secret abortion save that
teen?
By saving her from being killed, beaten, or abandoned, by her parents.

[David_V]

so an average pregnant scared 15 year old girl can be trusted to make a rational, responsible decision that she can live with the rest of her life......
YES! She, not you, knows her parents and knows if they will react violently or not.

[David_V]

...
I do NOT believe, that any teenage child, should be allowed to have an abortion without the active involvement/knowledge and support of a parent OR guardian....
As far as I know, a teen cannot just walk in and get a "secret" abortion. Doesn't she have to see a judge first?

also, just because she is under 18 is no reason to force her to continue the pregnancy. It's still her body, and still her life. The decision she makes needs to be fully supported.

[Red Mule]

csciacca,

I'm sure you and your family are caring people that try to think about what these difficult decisions mean to those that must suffer the results. Your personal experience cannot be denied. But, what we are already doing is not solving the problem and our arguements about abortion keep missing the point of doing better to stop the prenancies in the first place.

My brother and his wife have been taking in foster children for many years now. Most of these kids are "in the system" as a result of teen pregancies.

Right now the United States has the highest teen pregnancy rate of any developed country. It is twice as high as England, France & Canada, three times as high as Sweden and four times as high as The Netherlands. California has the second highest teen pregnancy rate in the US.

46% of single mothers receive public assistance.

Three in ten teen mothers go on welfare within three years of the birth of their first child.

One in three teen mothers drops out of high school.

Of prison inmates between 15 & 19 years of age, 90% are products of an adolescent pregnancy.

The cost to our government for teen pregnancy is estimated by several different agencies. Various estimates put it as high as $50,000,000,000 annually, while the low side estimate is a staggering $25,000,000,000. This does not consider the cost of factors other than direct payments. Education, food subsidies, incarceration, WIC and other programs are not included, nor the costs in time and actual money contributed by charitable organizations.

Additionally, a study by Zhenchao Qian, co-author of the study and associate professor of sociology at Ohio State University, found, it's more difficult for unwed mothers to get married, and if they do, they tend to not marry well.

It seems to me that pro-choice and pro-life should be able to get together and work the real problem rather than just fight over what to do and who to inform after its too late.

[dancingqueen]

I agree with what you have said and most of all with your last sentence.

[dancingqueen]

As far as I know, a teen cannot just walk in and get a "secret" abortion. Doesn't she have to see a judge first?

also, just because she is under 18 is no reason to force her to continue the pregnancy. It's still her body, and still her life. The decision she makes needs to be fully supported.

David, when I first read your post I thought have I been missing something all these years. I have never known a teenager to go to a judge to get permission to get an abortion. Yes, I am sure they can just walk into Planned Parenthood and ask for an abortion, no one is contacted, not the parents and not the juvenile justice system. In states that have parential notification laws there is something called Judicial Bypass that gives a judge the right to allow a teenager to get an abortion without their parents permission. But NO as far as I know a pregnant teenager does not "see a judge first".

[David_V]

... But NO as far as I know a pregnant teenager does not "see a judge first".
As I said, I could be wrong on this. Even if I am, I am certain that most, if not all, doctors would sit down and have a long talk with the young woman. They're not just going to schedule an abortion for a 14 year old without question.

This law is just another attempt to pick away at RvW and make all abortions illegal. I remember a few years ago a similar proposition contained a definition of abortion; "the death of an unborn child." These people will not give up.

[only1alphafemale]

I have to disagree with you David V but only from how I am looking at it from my view point, which I will explain below if I can ~

I am the mother of a daughter. (She is no longer a teenager with a family of her own now). A real fear of any parent is their daughter coming home saying she's pregnant. There is a lot of heartache in those two words, *I'm pregnant" depending on the circumstances, but especially in the case of a young teenage mother.

I do NOT believe that a child under the lawful age of 18,( which is still a long ways from being a an adult in many cases ) should have the right to keep her pregnancy a secret for fear of disappointing her parents or of "making them mad" etc and so forth. ( As I stated previously, if its a case of incest or abuse that can cause her harm by disclosing this information to her parents, then there are already agencies that will and can and DO protect children from these types of issues! )

Its a decision that needs to be made based on so many *other* reasons and facts.

First of all, is the mothers own real reasons for either wanting to have the abortion, and to determine if her reasons are based in sound reasoning and facts, and NOT out of fear of retribution or embarassment at haven gotten *caught*.

Secondly, I know young women who have used having and abortion as an alternative to unsafe sex. ( I mean I am aware of one young woman who has had 4 abortions before she was even 24 years old! and thinks this is perfectly ACCEPTABLE!!! (This in my book is very WRONG and was not how this medical service was intended to be used !)

Thirdly, The young woman needs lots of guidance, and needs to be made aware of feelings that she may feel years down that road the may effect her mental health or how she views herself later on. ( There is actually a Post Abortion effect that is now being studied as it can effect a woman negatively later on ...)

Once all options have been discussed, listened to, and I mean actually heard and considered? Then the decision should be made, but not just from fear of getting *caught* or feeling embarrassed or humiliated or because Mom and or Dad will be upset~

I love my daughter unconditionally. Sure, I may have been upset if she had told me she were pregnant, and the ramifications of this type of unexpected pregnancy are great~! But I firmly believe that a parent or a guardian needs to be completely INVOLVED in this type of choice and decision making, Its NOT one to be taken or made lightly HOWEVER and the expectant mothers wishes and needs, need to also be considered and taken in to account!

I also have first hand knowledge of how an abortion "counseling session" may go when a young woman is considering abortion.

Its NOT a well rounded counseling session, by much, as the abortion clinics see all of the unwanted children who are born, raised in poverty, on welfare who go hungry, cold and unloved etc. and would rather see a pregnancy terminated based on just those credentials alone, unmarried with no income or stable home environment to *raise* a child in etc.~ They will recommend and concur a termination in most cases.

I do believe in the right of a woman's choice to choose if she is going have an abortion or not, or raise a child or not. I just do NOT think that is a right that should be left up to or given a young adult to make, until ALL of the options have been explored, considered and discussed.

This includes the options and responsibilities of the father, as it took both of them to get them pregnant, however the final choice being that of the mother to be.

[Red Mule]

O1af,

Everything you say is, or should be, true. I have two daughters that have presented me with wonderful grandchildren. They did it after they were married to men that were adults and willing and able to take responsiblity for their families. They also did it after they attended college and were able to provide a good standard of living for themselves and their children, should anything bad happen to their husbands or their marriages. Our family has been blessed by the births of these children.

The odds of any of this happening would have been greatly reduced if they had become pregnant as teenagers. They were not perfect teenagers and young adults. But, they were armed with the knowledge, confident self images, and tools to prevent undesired consequences. I'm sure there is much that happened that I don't know about. Although, they both know I and their mother would have provided unconditional love, no matter what happened or didn't happen.

I can hope they share my values, but I would never impose them. Because some young girls use abortion as their ONLY birth control does not mean it should never be an option for anyone else. Yes, our children should talk to us before making a decision like this. But, should we impose it by law on everyone when we know there are still many disfunctional families? I agree with you on so many issues, but this is one we will have to go in different directions.

[David_V]

...I am the mother of a daughter. (She is no longer a teenager with a family of her own now). A real fear of any parent is their daughter coming home saying she's pregnant. There is a lot of heartache in those two words, *I'm pregnant" depending on the circumstances, but especially in the case of a young teenage mother.
That is in your home. I have no doubt that you would have supported your daughter instead of killing her like some parents have.

I do NOT believe that a child under the lawful age of 18,( which is still a long ways from being a an adult in many cases ) should have the right to keep her pregnancy a secret for fear of disappointing her parents or of "making them mad" etc and so forth. ( As I stated previously, if its a case of incest or abuse that can cause her harm by disclosing this information to her parents, then there are already agencies that will and can and DO protect children from these types of issues! )
I am not worried at all about her feelings that her parents would be disappointed. I'm worried about them killing her.

Its a decision that needs to be made based on so many *other* reasons and facts.
Yes, it is. I am not in possession of any, or all, of the facts for any young woman's situation. She is. She knows if it is dangerous to inform her parents. She knows what would be best for her.

First of all, is the mothers own real reasons for either wanting to have the abortion, and to determine if her reasons are based in sound reasoning and facts, and NOT out of fear of retribution or embarassment at haven gotten *caught*.
Those fears are not what I am talking about. I am dealing only with the real physical threat that some parents will present. Again, the young lady would know about that very real physical threat - not you, not me.

Secondly, I know young women who have used having and abortion as an alternative to unsafe sex. ....
Then everyone should work together and PREVENT as many teen pregnancies as possible. That must be accomplished with free birth control for any teen asking. Forcing them into a possible violent situation is not the answer.

Thirdly, The young woman needs lots of guidance, and needs to be made aware of feelings that she may feel years down that road the may effect her mental health or how she views herself later on. ( There is actually a Post Abortion effect that is now being studied as it can effect a woman negatively later on ...)
Yes, but, again, forcing her to talk with violent parents is not the answer. She knows best.

Once all options have been discussed, listened to, and I mean actually heard and considered? Then the decision should be made, but not just from fear of getting *caught* or feeling embarrassed or humiliated or because Mom and or Dad will be upset~
Again, I don't care about all that. It's the violent situations that are known to happen that I care about.

I love my daughter unconditionally. Sure, I may have been upset if she had told me she were pregnant, and the ramifications of this type of unexpected pregnancy are great~! But I firmly believe that a parent or a guardian needs to be completely INVOLVED in this type of choice and decision making, Its NOT one to be taken or made lightly HOWEVER and the expectant mothers wishes and needs, need to also be considered and taken in to account!
What MUST be taken into account is the very real threat of violence.

[only1alphafemale]

Bit its not *just* about an issue of a protection against violence David V.
Its more than just that.

There are already laws and protection for any child to protect them from parental abuse and harm.

Which includes a few of the issues I was speaking about.

[dancingqueen]

David, I do not think that anyone is suggesting that a teenage girl tell a potentially violent parent or gaurdian that she is pregnant ALONE. There are people and agencies in place to protect children. I am hoping that someone who knows more about the actual abortion process addresses the violent proceedure that an abortion is. I have only heard about it, I have never seen one myself so I do not feel qualified to address this issue.

[David_V]

Bit its not *just* about an issue of a protection against violence David V. [/qiuote]
That is all I can see. I grew up in a neighborhood that had quite a few dysfunctional, and violent. families.

[quote]Its more than just that.

There are already laws and protection for any child to protect them from parental abuse and harm.
They don't always work.

Which includes a few of the issues I was speaking about.
It may, but from my experience the young woman would know if it is safe or not. Forcing her into a violent situation is not a solution.

[David_V]

David, I do not think that anyone is suggesting that a teenage girl tell a potentially violent parent or gaurdian that she is pregnant ALONE. There are people and agencies in place to protect children. I am hoping that someone who knows more about the actual abortion process addresses the violent proceedure that an abortion is. I have only heard about it, I have never seen one myself so I do not feel qualified to address this issue.
Sorry, an abortion is a medical procedure, not a violent act. I am pro choice, always have been and always will be. I cannot see how forcing a woman to be nothing more than a walking uterus with no rights at all is of any help to society. It only cheapens the life that is already here.

[only1alphafemale]

O1af,

Everything you say is, or should be, true. I have two daughters that have presented me with wonderful grandchildren. They did it after they were married to men that were adults and willing and able to take responsiblity for their families. They also did it after they attended college and were able to provide a good standard of living for themselves and their children, should anything bad happen to their husbands or their marriages. Our family has been blessed by the births of these children.

The odds of any of this happening would have been greatly reduced if they had become pregnant as teenagers. They were not perfect teenagers and young adults. But, they were armed with the knowledge, confident self images, and tools to prevent undesired consequences. I'm sure there is much that happened that I don't know about. Although, they both know I and their mother would have provided unconditional love, no matter what happened or didn't happen.

I can hope they share my values, but I would never impose them. Because some young girls use abortion as their ONLY birth control does not mean it should never be an option for anyone else. Yes, our children should talk to us before making a decision like this. But, should we impose it by law on everyone when we know there are still many disfunctional families? I agree with you on so many issues, but this is one we will have to go in different directions.

Red Mule,

I understand what your saying, and I respect your opinion too.

However, when it comes to any form of health care that involves my minor children? I feel should be a part of it. I like to think that most parents are like I (we) are, but I know thats not the case all of the time

My children needed my guidance. My children needed and depended on me to tell them the truth, so when they were faced with making hard choices that only they could make~ they were able to make them to the best of their ability.

I feel that its a parents responsibility to instruct and advise and teach and guide their children and be there for them to help them make the best possible choices they can for themselves. The removal of a parent involvement at such a crucial time of a child / young adults life is doing them a grave injustice, and fails our children at a time when they need to make a decision that will effect them in more ways than one for the rest of their lives but due to their young age arent capable of making on their own.

I wasnt just responsible for my children, but I was (am) responsible to my children also.

If my daughter would have come to me at the age of 15 and told me she was pregnant, and wanted an abortion, I would not have denied her that right to make her own decision, once I was certain she had made this decision after she had weighed all of the other options/ and consequences that come with having made the decision she chose, either way and was one she had made fully armed with all the facts.

I guess in this I am just too old fashioned or ??? who knows what? to change my my feelings which are those of strong parental responsibility on this.

[Mysteefied]

I think some of you need to walk in others shoes to truley get it, unless you've dealt with these types of situations personally.....some of you will always have closed minds.

I hope you will never have to know what the reality of what some of teens go through.

I also know that I am not the only one here, who knows the reality of the kind of parents a teen would never tell something like that to.

it breaks my heart that there are the few of you here who actually think that most of the world is all flowery and wonderful like your life... In general...it's not.

[only1alphafemale]

Myst I HAVE walked in these shoes, as a small child and then a teen who was continually beaten by a fanatical father.

From those beatings? He *graduated* ~ to wanting to take his daughter " out in the woods to teach her how to kiss"

Thats how I know that even back then? 34 years ago, There was help!

[Mysteefied]

Myst I HAVE walked in these shoes, as a small child and then a teen who was continually beaten by a fanatical father.

From those beatings? He *graduated* ~ to wanting to take his daughter " out in the woods to teach her how to kiss"

Thats how I know that even back then? 34 years ago, There was help!

Alpha, I'm sorry you had to go through that, and glad that you can understand what some of these teens are going through. I also went through it....on a level I never want to remember, but threads like these, leave me no choice but to voice my opinion and what I would approve of for my daughters. I would rather they go to a real doctor and having something done that is medically legal and safe. (yes, I know that NO medical procedure is 100% safe) but I want my daughters and their daughters to have options and we only do so much on a family level, but if this law passes, it doesn't mean that girls will tell there parents anything more than they do now, it only means that they will be having illegal abortions on an extremely unsafe, unsanitary and downright dangerous level, they will not have the option of being guided by a trained staff of medical doctors, nurses or otherwise.

Help is only helpful if you know where to find it. That is where the teens need to be educated and even then, it would vary from town to town, depending on resources.

This is only my opinion. I'm sure that most people already have made up there minds and just like many other issues on this forum, we will have to agree to disagree.

[only1alphafemale]

Alpha, I'm sorry you had to go through that, and glad that you can understand what some of these teens are going through. I also went through it....on a level I never want to remember, but threads like these, leave me no choice but to voice my opinion and what I would approve of for my daughters. I would rather they go to a real doctor and having something done that is medically legal and safe. (yes, I know that NO medical procedure is 100% safe) but I want my daughters and their daughters to have options and we only do so much on a family level, but if this law passes, it doesn't mean that girls will tell there parents anything more than they do now, it only means that they will be having illegal abortions on an extremely unsafe, unsanitary and downright dangerous level, they will not have the option of being guided by a trained staff of medical doctors, nurses or otherwise.

Help is only helpful if you know where to find it. That is where the teens need to be educated and even then, it would vary from town to town, depending on resources.

This is only my opinion. I'm sure that most people already have made up there minds and just like many other issues on this forum, we will have to agree to disagree.

I dont disagree with this Myst. I voiced the devils adovacte which has been raging a silent battle inside of myself. I didnt say which way I was voting, I simply stated how the way I did vote, made me feel and why... Like I was taking away something that is very important to ME as a parent....

( Much Like KK did when she stated why she hadnt been able to make up her mind of how she was going to vote on the PROP 8 ) only mine was in the after math of how I had already voted.

My vote was already cast last week my absentee ballot. I voted NO on this proposition. However, I have great cause for concern on the personal level that it was the right vote, and I expressed my doubts...or fears (guilts?) that have kept this *turmoil* alive in side of me and the basis of the turmoil. My head can tell me one thing and my heart another. Now I have to try to find a way to make them somehow *live together* inside of myself on this. :cry:

Red Mule helped alleviate or came as close as anyone else did, while I wrestle the consequences of my actions ~ and very teary ones they are believe me!

I can only pray that the vote I cast, as torn as I have been made by it, was the right one!

[intheoak]

Law cannot mandate family communication. There is a reason these laws have not been implimented in the past. There is also a reason why some girls cannot tell their parents. Vote no on prop 4!!!