The Truth about Christmas- And it's not Jesus's birthday!

[Hermie]

Despite what you might think, Christmas has nothing to do with the birth of Jesus. Outrageous as it might sound, pick up your bible and read the story of his birth again. It never says the day Jesus was born, but gives plenty of hints that it wasn't in December.

Also, here's a good referrence:

http://www.christiananswers.net/christmas/mythsaboutchristmas.html

It is highly unlikely that the shepherds had thier flocks out in the middle of winter.

The date December 25 was chosen to give a Christian alternative to the Pagan's festival, Saturnalia, which includes Winter Solstice, which usually occurred around December 25.

And could Mary really have traveled 65 miles in those days when fully pregnant?

For those of Christian faith, I seriously suggest you open your mind and do some truthful research into your religion, because I guarantee you'll find a lot of Pagan roots. Ironic, because Christians persecuted the Pagans...

Christmas is not alone. Here's the truth behind Easter:

http://www.lasttrumpetministries.org/tracts/tract1.html

The answer to what Jesus has to do with rabbits and eggs: Nothing!

[dancingqueen]

Since no one really knows the date of Jesuses birth, the Roman Catholic Church felt free to chose a date. The church wished to replace the pagan festival with a Christian Holy Day. The psychology was that it is easier to take away an unholy festival and replace it with a good one. Many of the beliefs of Christians have to do with FAITH. Most of us are not stupid, we do not believe everything we read or see or someone tells us about. As far as I am concerned, the story of Jesus birth is a beautiful one, handed down over thousands of years. But, it is a story, no one really knows where or when Jesus was born.

[Yosemite Joy]

Despite what you might think, Christmas has nothing to do with the birth of Jesus. Outrageous as it might sound, pick up your bible and read the story of his birth again. It never says the day Jesus was born, but gives plenty of hints that it wasn't in December.

Also, here's a good referrence:

http://www.christiananswers.net/christmas/mythsaboutchristmas.html

It is highly unlikely that the shepherds had thier flocks out in the middle of winter.

The date December 25 was chosen to give a Christian alternative to the Pagan's festival, Saturnalia, which includes Winter Solstice, which usually occurred around December 25.

And could Mary really have traveled 65 miles in those days when fully pregnant?

For those of Christian faith, I seriously suggest you open your mind and do some truthful research into your religion, because I guarantee you'll find a lot of Pagan roots. Ironic, because Christians persecuted the Pagans...

Christmas is not alone. Here's the truth behind Easter:

http://www.lasttrumpetministries.org/tracts/tract1.html

The answer to what Jesus has to do with rabbits and eggs: Nothing!

This is all very well known, is it not?

Most of us are not stupid, we do not believe everything we read or see or someone tells us about.

Well, there is that inerrant word of god thing...

[RustyGal]

Despite the imprecision of calendar date, Christians do believe the story of Jesus' birth as told in the Bible and for Christians no matter what the pagan influences of the season that story is what we celebrate at this time. Jesus IS the reason for the season. You can throw out Santa and the reindeer, Christmas trees and wreaths, ornaments and lights and magical toys but I'd still celebrate His birth because I believe and it's the time the originators of our calendars and rituals give us to do so.

[dancingqueen]

Beautifully stated.

[dancingqueen]

Rustygal, you can substitute "Easter bonnet, Easter eggs, Easter basket, Easter bunny" and say the exact same thing about Easter as you did about Christmas. It is the time that was chosen thousands of years ago to celebrate the resurrection of Christ. Some of us just choose to believe. It is a mystery to me why some people try to take that away from us. I am not trying to convert anyone to my beliefs, I am just stating what I believe and I don't need anyone to try to prove to me that the dates and facts are not correct. This is my faith.

[only1alphafemale]

Faith means different things to different people. Along with faith comes tradition. If you practice faith, in one form or another you also will more than likely practice a tradition.
HOW these traditions are celebrated differs between each faith.

No, I dont believe that Dec 25th is the actual/factual date of Christ's birth. I do believe however it is day that has been set aside to HONOR is birth, which is also accompanied by surrounded by other faith based traditions that fall around the same time of year, like the winter solstice and Yule.

This time of year is a very spiritual time of year for many people of many different faiths. Key word being *Faith* ~ I honor the traditions and the spirituality as its intended and am very content and fulfilled in doing so.

I respect everyone right to celebrate their faiths and spirituality/religion, seeing each and everyone of them for there Holy, Hallowed , Sanctified, (even sanctioned) basis of intention and respect it with a joy in my heart for this person and their beliefs.

Will I try to dash or dampen anyones spiritual *glow* (if you will) by attempting to debate the logistics, facts or myths of their faith during their joy for their holiday? No. I for one will not.

This season has existed for hundreds of years and regardless of its accuracy, its primary or founding *intention* holds validity for many hearts and is a cherished special time of year.

Granted, its become HIGHLY COMMERCIALIZED over the years ~ but thats a whole *nother* issue...;)

[RustyGal]

Some of us just choose to believe. It is a mystery to me why some people try to take that away from us.

Yes, there is just a cruel & mean spiritedness about that which is offensive.

[David_V]

...But, it is a story, no one really knows where or when Jesus was born.
Or IF he was born.

[David_V]

Despite the imprecision of calendar date, Christians do believe the story of Jesus' birth as told in the Bible and for Christians no matter what the pagan influences of the season that story is what we celebrate at this time.
There are even Pagan influences IN that story of his birth. Osiris and other gods have had a similar birth story; a virgin birth, born among animals in a barn or something, 3 men traveling from afar to bring gifts, a ruler killing first born to kill off his competition. And all these stories are OLDER than the Christian version.

Jesus IS the reason for the season.
Actually the Winter Solstice is the reason. On that day, due to the rotation and tilt of the Earth, days start to get longer and nights shorter. It's as if the Sun is born again. Many gods have their birthday on the Winter Solstice. There's been a celebration on that day for hundreds of thousands of years.

You can throw out Santa and the reindeer, Christmas trees and wreaths, ornaments and lights and magical toys but I'd still celebrate His birth because I believe and it's the time the originators of our calendars and rituals give us to do so.
I'm not about to celebrate something just because Gregory of Bologna chose a date. Actually, he didn't. That date was chosen about 1200 years before he made up our calendar. He also chose to name the days of the week after the gods of other religions. Do you celebrate those gods too? He gave the Christian god only one day, but the other gods have 52 days each.

[dancingqueen]

Oh, David, this is such a special time of year as is Easter, for many of us. Please don't do this. I am asking nicely, please don't do this now.

[David_V]

Rustygal, you can substitute "Easter bonnet, Easter eggs, Easter basket, Easter bunny" and say the exact same thing about Easter as you did about Christmas. It is the time that was chosen thousands of years ago to celebrate the resurrection of Christ.
Then why is the day and everything about that day named after the goddess of spring - Eastra? People have been celebrating the death and rebirths of gods on that day for over 100,000 years, long before the invention of the Christian religion.

Some of us just choose to believe. It is a mystery to me why some people try to take that away from us.....
I know of no one trying to take anything away from you. Some of us do not believe. Are you trying to take that away? If we do not believe should we just sit in the corner and shut up?

[David_V]

Oh, David, this is such a special time of year as is Easter, for many of us. Please don't do this. I am asking nicely, please don't do this now.
You can believe anything you want, but what am I doing? Am I not allowed to speak up? Is all speech not 100% flattering to religion to be squashed?

[dancingqueen]

David, you have as much of a right to express your opinion as I do mine. Usually I do not have a problem bantering back and forth with you. But, not on this topic. I am feeling very wonderful about this particular holiday season and all that it represents for me and the people I love and hold dearest to my heart. I am choosing to not look at this thread again, after I have posted this. I have learned that sometimes you just need to take the high road and right now, for me that is walking away and turning my back on words that are hurtful and bordering on cruel. How ever you choose to celebrate on the 25th of December I hope it is enjoyable to you and the ones you love.

[David_V]

David, you have as much of a right to express your opinion as I do mine. Usually I do not have a problem bantering back and forth with you. But, not on this topic. I am feeling very wonderful about this particular holiday season and all that it represents for me and the people I love and hold dearest to my heart. I am choosing to not look at this thread again, after I have posted this. I have learned that sometimes you just need to take the high road and right now, for me that is walking away and turning my back on words that are hurtful and bordering on cruel. How ever you choose to celebrate on the 25th of December I hope it is enjoyable to you and the ones you love.
How can telling the truth be hurtful and cruel in this case? I do not see how the truth about the real reason for the season would cause anyone any distress? :shrug: You can still celebrate whatever you want.

[Red Mule]

I am as guilty as anyone else, but I think the problem here is not that people can disagree and discuss sensitive subjects. It is that, at least as far as this forum is concerned, that we don't pay enough attention to Thread Topics.

I think this thread is titled "The Truth about Christmas- And it's not Jesus's birthday. Seeing that topic, I should not be surprised to find people that want to express their feelings about this. Nor would I be surprised that they all do not follow the traditional christian story. Given the thread topic, I think this is EXACTLY where David should post his thoughts.

However, if someone started a thread like, "I love Christmas!" I would hope that he and others that don't believe in a traditional Christmas would refrain from raining on that particular parade.

I have good Jewish and Atheist friends that also enjoy this season. There was a movement for a while that wanted something more specific to the black culture called Kwanzaa. I think the good will and gift giving that "we hope" surrounds this time of year can transcend any single religious belief without taking away anything from any one of them.

[kellieflan]

...I think the problem here is not that people can disagree and discuss sensitive subjects. It is that, at least as far as this forum is concerned, that we don't pay enough attention to Thread Topics.

Exactly, Red Mule! This drove me nuts during the period prior to the elections, when Prop 8 was being hotly debated, as well as other religious threads... it's really important to follow the thread topic to avoid useless debate and hurt feelings.

[Yosemite Joy]

I tell you David, if I wasn't happily married and had a tractor....

[David_V]

I tell you David, if I wasn't happily married and had a tractor....
What? You'd run me over with it? :D

[David_V]

....I have good Jewish and Atheist friends that also enjoy this season. There was a movement for a while that wanted something more specific to the black culture called Kwanzaa. I think the good will and gift giving that "we hope" surrounds this time of year can transcend any single religious belief without taking away anything from any one of them.
That's right. And how can knowing the history of a celebration detract from the celebration. Having a celebration at this time of the year is probably as old as humans. I'm having 20 people over tomorrow (where they'll sit, I have no idea) for a Solstice Celebration. Some are believers, most are not. It doesn't matter since we're all going to celebrate life..... and give thanks to the Turkey that gave it's life for us.

[MtnBreeze]

I tell you David, if I wasn't happily married and had a tractor....

Hahaha YJ...too cute. And he tried to act like he doesn't have a clue ;)
Too funny David :)

[Originally Posted by Red Mule
....I have good Jewish and Atheist friends that also enjoy this season. There was a movement for a while that wanted something more specific to the black culture called Kwanzaa. I think the good will and gift giving that "we hope" surrounds this time of year can transcend any single religious belief without taking away anything from any one of them]

Well said Red Mule. And I agree people should try to refrain from taking discussions personal when it is a discussion of this type. We all walk down our own paths and are free to celebrate as we wish. This should not be threatening to anyone.

[only1alphafemale]

I love solstice ~ ! For myself it means (among other things) the days start getting longer again!!! :D and spring is on its way......!

[David_V]

I love solstice ~ ! For myself it means (among other things) the days start getting longer again!!! :D and spring is on its way......!

But that won't happen if not enough people have a Solstice Bonfire. I have a big one planned for tomorrow. This will help the Sun to grow strong for Spring.

[only1alphafemale]

But that won't happen if not enough people have a Solstice Bonfire. I have a big one planned for tomorrow. This will help the Sun to grow strong for Spring.

I have a huge one I have been *growing* all year....;) for the re-kindling purpose~

(Now if its a just burn day!) Not sure how thats working this year since they keep changing the burn requirements on us, as far as the air quality board goes for the county....:mad:

Anyway, mine is ready to go too~

[MtnBreeze]

But that won't happen if not enough people have a Solstice Bonfire. I have a big one planned for tomorrow. This will help the Sun to grow strong for Spring.

It WILL happen :) if you Believe it will :) hehehe

[Hermie]

I believe that the deepest roots of winter celebrations go back to the early hunter-gatherers when they would store food for the winter, and have one last feast before rationing everything during the hard, cold months ahead before Spring.

Also, if people are mature enough, they can discuss anything. Not being able to discuss sensitive issues in a civil manner would simply show the maturity (or lack thereof) of the people here.

[only1alphafemale]

Many years ago when I was first becoming conscious of such *other* religious celebrations, (outside of or beyond those of a traditional Christian one's) I found many and I was enriched by them.

I always experience this happy little December *glow* if you will, as I am a very spiritually diversified person.

I love this time of year because of the range of the diversity that's found amongst ALL faiths and beliefs and is celebrated in this mont ~ from the Solstice/Yule to Christmas, Hanukkah, you name it.

I respect ALL religious traditions and views for their ability to inspire people to lead more ethical lives, AND because I see Religious diversity as a positive influence.

Hermie, I wish to ask you what your *intentions* are here, ( and while I'm at it I ask the same regarding your other post located elsewhere in the forums)? Do you, or are your intentions to shock, provoke, cause dismay or are you just testing the waters? All of this? None of this?

Would you have posted this thread (timely as it is) at any other time of year?

Thank you,

[Hermie]

My intentions with this thread are to provoke deep internal thought about one's own faith. What I am trying to do is make people think about what they believe in, why they believe in it, and defend thier beliefs. If a person of faith is disturbed by the fact that Jesus was not born on December 25, maybe they aren't in the right faith, and should continue their journey of spiritual enlightenment.
(Jehovah's Witnesses are Chrisitans that don't celebrate holidays because they know full well the Pagan roots of these holidays, and take Christianity to its purest form, for example of another faith.)

As for my other thread, (though it is off-topic here), I was simply seeing if there were any like-minded people in the Yosemite region, and to clear up misunderstandings about the Furry fandom (pretty much, my two posts giving almost an essay and answering someone's questions sum it up perfectly).

I am not here to shock people or cause dismay. While the truth about Christmas may shock someone, as I said before, that is not my intention.

[Kat]

Many years ago when I was first becoming conscious of such *other* religious celebrations, (outside of or beyond those of a traditional Christian one's) I found many and I was enriched by them.

I always experience this happy little December *glow* if you will, as I am a very spiritually diversified person.

I love this time of year because of the range of the diversity that's found amongst ALL faiths and beliefs and is celebrated in this mont ~ from the Solstice/Yule to Christmas, Hanukkah, you name it.

I respect ALL religious traditions and views for their ability to inspire people to lead more ethical lives, AND because I see Religious diversity as a positive influence.


Well said! I agree completely.

I do believe in God, and Jesus, whenever he was born or whatever, that isn't the point to me. The point is his message: Love each other and be supportive, despite all of our sins (including gays).

I also respect all of the world's religions. I think the common themes are telling: be a good person.

I no longer call myself a Christian ( can I do that and still believe in Jesus?) because of the closed minds and hardened hearts.

Christmas is still fun, And I lit a big bonfire yesterday because I love winter solstice. Didn't realize it helps the sun grow stronger! I believe, I believe...

[Red Mule]

I no longer call myself a Christian ( can I do that and still believe in Jesus?) because of the closed minds and hardened hearts.


I agree with this 100%. The message I am now hearing from the mainstream christian churches is not the message I learned from Jesus when I was a boy. I will stubbornly cling to the belief that our job here is to just love each other and not make life difficult for others over perceived differences. I'll not throw the first, or even the last, stone.

Whatever you wish to call it, I think we can all celebrate this time of year. I just won't be doing it from the pews.

[Kat]

I agree with this 100%. The message I am now hearing from the mainstream christian churches is not the message I learned from Jesus when I was a boy. I will stubbornly cling to the belief that our job here is to just love each other and not make life difficult for others over perceived differences. I'll not throw the first, or even the last, stone.

Whatever you wish to call it, I think we can all celebrate this time of year. I just won't be doing it from the pews.

Thank you, Red Mule. Since I respect your opinion, I'm still ready to go to your church.

[Iris]

I agree with this 100%. The message I am now hearing from the mainstream christian churches is not the message I learned from Jesus when I was a boy. I will stubbornly cling to the belief that our job here is to just love each other and not make life difficult for others over perceived differences. I'll not throw the first, or even the last, stone.

Whatever you wish to call it, I think we can all celebrate this time of year. I just won't be doing it from the pews.

Very Nicely Said, Red Mule! Like many, my beliefs are very diverse with a respect for all life and a desire to do no harm...

[Hermie]

Methinks the old "fertilizer and ice cream" thing about mixing church and state doesn't really hold anymore. With the Religious Right wiggling it's way into where they don't belong, they seem to be destroying beautiful theology with it.

But really, there shouldn't be just one time of year for Christians to actually practice the love and kindness they're sopposed to always have. All people should have this spirit of kindness and generosity at any given time.

[only1alphafemale]

Methinks the old "fertilizer and ice cream" thing about mixing church and state doesn't really hold anymore. With the Religious Right wiggling it's way into where they don't belong, they seem to be destroying beautiful theology with it.

But really, there shouldn't be just one time of year for Christians to actually practice the love and kindness they're sopposed to always have. All people should have this spirit of kindness and generosity at any given time.

I agree Hermie, and for the most part I think people try to, but something about this time of year brings it more front and center, or into greater focus if you will, as we acknowledge the hundreds of years that have been steeped in tradition when they come forth, holding an additional charm along with the conveyances, and dates are a great way to mark those special times.

[RustyGal]

I wish I'd said that: http://newsdoggg.multiply.com/journal/item/367/Eve_of_Eves_....?replies_read=5