Non-Believers controversy

[Yosemite Joy]

http://www.canada.com/calgaryherald/news/theeditorialpage/story.html?id=13fffa61-f358-44da-8fae-87a80f3b07c2

Still, many observers were heartened that Obama made an overt plea to bring all types of people into his tent when he said in his speech, "We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus --and non-believers."

It's a good start, I suppose. On the other hand, that line stood out to me, and not in a good way.

Non-believers?

That's hardly a flattering term when it follows up a grocery list of superstar faiths. Really, just the one catch-all for the Buddhists, atheists and pagans among us?

In one sense the term can even be considered a slur. To call atheists non-believers is to subtly reinforce the malign notion that they don't believe in anything apart from their hedonistic impulses.

In fact, to thoughtful people, being atheist is every bit as much spiritual work as being a Roman Catholic. You just don't see that work being done, is all.

Many atheists, for example, take "do unto others as you would have them do unto you" far more seriously than some Sunday hypocrites. Still others have performed a far-reaching exploration of the religion of others, and though they can't rationally accept that the universe is created by and for some sort of godhead, they nevertheless can accept--and believe in--a whole host of plausible cosmic powers.

I for one believe in the existence of karma, though I conceive of it as a possibly physical or perhaps energetic life force. I thus believe intuition somehow involves the flow of electrons in ways we've yet to fully grasp. I believe animals can know earthquakes are about to hap-pen, just as humans can have a sense of who is in the next room.

These beliefs, I readily acknowledge, are every bit as impossible to prove as the existence of a god in a heaven. Which is just one reason why I wouldn't dream of inflicting my beliefs on anyone else.

And there is another thing atheists allow themselves to believe: that religions, while perhaps founded on benign spiritual principles, can provoke grave consequences when inserted into political affairs. Throughout history most of the world's conflicts seem to have had religious input. The bloodiest battles of our time are being fought by zealous parties which, in the view of non-religious outsiders, have negligible differences separating their faiths.

[Yosemite Joy]

Not everyone was happy with President Barack Obama's nod to nonbelievers and non-Christians in his inaugural address. And some of the stiff criticism about Obama’s religious inclusiveness is coming from African-American Christians who maintain that no, all faiths were actually not created equal.

In his inaugural address, President Barack Obama celebrated America as a "nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers." Some Christians are taking issue with the approach to inclusiveness, saying the president misrepresented America's culture and heritage.

By mentioning, for the first time in an inaugural address, the 16.1 percent of Americans who check "no"’ when asked about religion, Obama turned it into the most controversial line in his speech -- praised by The New York Times editorial board and cited by some Christians as evidence that he is a heretic, and in his well-spoken way, a serious threat.
With that one line, the president "seems to be trying to redefine American culture, which is distinctively Christian," said’ Bishop E.W. Jackson of the Exodus Faith Ministries in Chesapeake, Va. "The overwhelming majority of Americans identify as Christians, and what disturbs me is that he seems to be trying to redefine who we are.’"

Earlier this week, Jackson was a guest on the popular conservative Christian radio show 'Janet Parshall's America,' where a succession of callers, many of whom identified themselves as African-American, said they shared the concern, and were perplexed and put off by the president’s shout-out to nonbelievers.

http://news.aol.com/article/obamas-nonbeliever-nod-unsettles-some/316339

[Iris]

http://www.canada.com/calgaryherald/news/theeditorialpage/story.html?id=13fffa61-f358-44da-8fae-87a80f3b07c2

Still, many observers were heartened that Obama made an overt plea to bring all types of people into his tent when he said in his speech, "We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus --and non-believers."

It's a good start, I suppose. On the other hand, that line stood out to me, and not in a good way.

Non-believers?

That's hardly a flattering term when it follows up a grocery list of superstar faiths. Really, just the one catch-all for the Buddhists, atheists and pagans among us?

In one sense the term can even be considered a slur. To call atheists non-believers is to subtly reinforce the malign notion that they don't believe in anything apart from their hedonistic impulses.

In fact, to thoughtful people, being atheist is every bit as much spiritual work as being a Roman Catholic. You just don't see that work being done, is all.

Many atheists, for example, take "do unto others as you would have them do unto you" far more seriously than some Sunday hypocrites. Still others have performed a far-reaching exploration of the religion of others, and though they can't rationally accept that the universe is created by and for some sort of godhead, they nevertheless can accept--and believe in--a whole host of plausible cosmic powers.

I for one believe in the existence of karma, though I conceive of it as a possibly physical or perhaps energetic life force. I thus believe intuition somehow involves the flow of electrons in ways we've yet to fully grasp. I believe animals can know earthquakes are about to hap-pen, just as humans can have a sense of who is in the next room.

These beliefs, I readily acknowledge, are every bit as impossible to prove as the existence of a god in a heaven. Which is just one reason why I wouldn't dream of inflicting my beliefs on anyone else.

And there is another thing atheists allow themselves to believe: that religions, while perhaps founded on benign spiritual principles, can provoke grave consequences when inserted into political affairs. Throughout history most of the world's conflicts seem to have had religious input. The bloodiest battles of our time are being fought by zealous parties which, in the view of non-religious outsiders, have negligible differences separating their faiths.

Well said, Yosemite Joy...
Although many may have been offended by President Obama's reference to "non-believers", I think that his very acknowledgment of "them" is rather monumental.

I too, believe in karma, and not a "God in Heaven" concept, as well as an energetic life force (my "version of God"), but would not dream of forcing my beliefs on anyone.

I often post in the "Prayers Begin Said" area, and do not consider that hypocritical in any way, as positive energy directed toward anyone should (IMO) be welcomed. (my Catholic mother, is turning in her grave).

Hopefully, I have not offended anyone...

[Yosemite Joy]

I didn't get a chance to post my own opinion, as I get pulled away from the computer quite regularly (ahh, that pesky thing called life).

I was listening and not listening to the inauguration speech (again, life) as it was being said. It wasn't until a friend of mine asked if I had heard the "non-believers" part that I went back and listened (kudos DVR).

This was telling to me, especially after the Reverend Jeremiah debacle, and his no on gay marriage stand. I was worried when "A Purpose-Filled Life" author was chosen for the opening prayer. But the phrase "and non-believers" elated me, and gave me relief.

Finally, a President who knows his Supreme Court cases, who has read the Constitution and it's Amendments.

And for those who believe that Obama is an Atheist in Christian clothing, read his books. Or better yet, remember that there is NO religious test of office in the United States.

[dancingqueen]

No offense taken Iris. We are all here on earth just trying in the best way we can to get through each day, believers and non-believers united. I am one believer who also believes in karma, intuition, that animals feel an earthquake coming and take shelter and try their hardest to warn us before it happens. I also can "feel" someone in the next room and sometimes I even know when the phone is going to ring and who will be at the other end.

[Dodgergirl]

No offense taken Iris. We are all here on earth just trying in the best way we can to get through each day, believers and non-believers united. I am one believer who also believes in karma, intuition, that animals feel an earthquake coming and take shelter and try their hardest to warn us before it happens. I also can "feel" someone in the next room and sometimes I even know when the phone is going to ring and who will be at the other end.

:yt:
Lol. If you ever call me and I answer with "hello psychic friend" you'll know I was just thinking of (calling) you...

[only1alphafemale]

Audible.com has President Obama's election speech free to download for any who may want to get it~
http://www.audible.com

I am VERY eclectic in my spirituality. Not any one religion "fits" inside of me. I dont believe that there is only one TRUE religion like some religions claim to be.
I felt his statement was meant to be *all encompassing* regarding and acknowledging all religious beliefs and freedoms, and held no derogatory meaning to avoid having to "list" everyone of them specifically and individually~ ....(we would still be listening to his speech! ;))

Right now people seem to want to *nit pick* things it seems to me. (flubbed oath etc.) Maybe its a way of taking our minds off of the real fears we have right now.....rolleyes:

[cattledoggiemoon]

Agree with you only1alphafemale...I was thinking the same thing...

Why aren't more people outraged and concered about limbaugh....that is the one who makes statements that are so alienating and polarizing....

http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/01/26/cafferty.obama/index.html

"Fair enough -- but to come right out and say "I want him to fail," exposes Limbaugh for the petulant, shallow gasbag that he is."

[Mysteefied]

I thought it was WONDERFUL!!! GO OBAMA!!

[Iris]

Me Too, Mystee!!!

(and Limbaugh, UGHHHHHHHH!; (IMHO)

[MtnBreeze]

[quote]With that one line, the president "seems to be trying to redefine American culture, which is distinctively Christian," said’ Bishop E.W. Jackson of the Exodus Faith Ministries in Chesapeake, Va. "The overwhelming majority of Americans identify as Christians, and what disturbs me is that he seems to be trying to redefine who we are.’"[quote]
Redefine? Our culture is based on freedom of belief, speech etc....I applaud Obama for his ability to see what really makes this nation great!!!!

[David_V]

Still, many observers were heartened that Obama made an overt plea to bring all types of people into his tent when he said in his speech, "We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus --and non-believers."

It's a good start, I suppose. On the other hand, that line stood out to me, and not in a good way.

Non-believers?

That's hardly a flattering term when it follows up a grocery list of superstar faiths. Really, just the one catch-all for the Buddhists, atheists and pagans among us?...
It's a start. At least he recognizes that we exist. Bush 41 didn't believe that Atheists should be citizens. That's alright, we're growing at a steady rate and in a few years we'll be passing the 50% mark like most of Europe has done.

[cattledoggiemoon]

rush.............ughhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

[Iris]

[quote]With that one line, the president "seems to be trying to redefine American culture, which is distinctively Christian," said’ Bishop E.W. Jackson of the Exodus Faith Ministries in Chesapeake, Va. "The overwhelming majority of Americans identify as Christians, and what disturbs me is that he seems to be trying to redefine who we are.’"[quote]
Redefine? Our culture is based on freedom of belief, speech etc....I applaud Obama for his ability to see what really makes this nation great!!!!

:applause:

[Red Mule]

For many years I identified myself as Christian, even though I had (and still do) many private doubts and reservations. But, when I looked around, I didn't see very many other choices I like better if I still wanted some sort of spiritual community. I suspect there are a great many sitting in the pews of our churches that feel the same way. They "go along" to "get along." I have yet to see the church, of any stripe, that asks it's members what they really believe.

So, when the statistics are gathered on what America believes, I suspect they are nowhere close to accurate.

[Freeweelin]

No offense to anyone! (especially the teachers)

One day a 6 year old girl was sitting in a classroom. The teacher was explaining evolution to the children. The teacher asked a little boy:

Tommy do you see the tree outside?
TOMMY: Yes.
TEACHER: Tommy, do you see the grass outside?
TOMMY: Yes.
TEACHER: Go outside and look up and see if you can see the sky.
TOMMY: Okay. (He returned a few minutes later) Yes, I saw the sky.
TEACHER: Did you see God up there?
TOMMY: No.
TEACHER: That's my point. We can't see God because he isn't there. Possibly he just doesn't exist.

The little girl spoke up and wanted to ask the boy some questions. The teacher agreed and the little girl asked the boy:

Tommy, do you see the tree outside?
TOMMY: Yes.
LITTLE GIRL: Tommy do you see the grass outside?
TOMMY: Yes!
LITTLE GIRL: Did you see the sky?
TOMMY: Yes!
LITTLE GIRL: Tommy, do you see the teacher?
TOMMY: Yes.
LITTLE GIRL: Do you see her brain?
TOMMY: No.
LITTLE GIRL: Then according to what we were taught today in school, she possibly
may not even have one!

Mathew 6:6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.

OK, I don't like to preach, but either the "Great Spirit", "God" or whatever denomiation including "Darwinism" ... keep an open mind!

[Red Mule]

If we are smart enough to write a program and set it running, I see no reason a supreme being couldn't do the same. I was always told we could not grasp the things God did. I would assume ancient non-technological people, even if it was explained exactly right to them, would end up trying to put it in terms they could understand. If evolution is God's way of designing us and all the life we see around us, I really see no conflict.

Sometimes we seem to look for things to argue about. If it's something that can't be proven, how likely will we ever resolve that? I think each person should try to find what feels right to him or her and stop trying to make everyone else walk to the same drummer.

[only1alphafemale]

I always enjoy different stories or examples that can provoke a thought or view on something, as they can open up a new avenue of thought for consideration and contemplation. :)

[Dodgergirl]

If we are smart enough to write a program and set it running, I see no reason a supreme being couldn't do the same. I was always told we could not grasp the things God did. I would assume ancient non-technological people, even if it was explained exactly right to them, would end up trying to put it in terms they could understand. If evolution is God's way of designing us and all the life we see around us, I really see no conflict.

Sometimes we seem to look for things to argue about. If it's something that can't be proven, how likely will we ever resolve that? I think each person should try to find what feels right to him or her and stop trying to make everyone else walk to the same drummer.

:yt:

very well said, Red Mule...