Christians and the Iraq war

[jakobscalpel]

This post is directed at Christians who support (or supported at one time) the ongoing war in Iraq. I'm not trying to provoke anyone or make some kind of smug point. Rather, my curiosity was aroused by this question the other day and I can't answer it to my satisfaction.

The question: How can a Christian honestly support the Iraq war? Killing another is a sin, regardless of the provocation (if any). Although I’ve read the bible a couple times it was a long time ago and I don’t remember specific passages about war being perhaps justified. Are they there? If not, or at least not directly, how can you reconcile a war with your Christian beliefs? Is it based on forgiveness perhaps? Thanks.

[Californee Girl]

Are you kidding? There are several referrences to wars throughout the Bible, most of them fully supported by God. Im not personally for any war, and I struggle with the whole idea of religious violence myself, but it is in there. Do you have a Bible with a concordance?

[beautiful_mess38]

In church today, Tom Anderson YLCC first missionary was captured in India along with we think Mary Cutter and some children.
(There will be a prayer service for them on Thurs. at 7pm)

There have always been wars. There will always be wars. I think Earth will come to an end so to speak before we ever see peace.

It doesnt matter what religion you are. For me there is only 1 God.
And as far as I'm concerned what Sadaam was doing was pure evil.
I do pray the citizens of Iraq can regain thier country with out having to live in fear of being captured and tortured.

Study the religion of Islam. Then ask your self that question again.

[MadScot]

Not only does the bible condone war it promotes genocide.

Deuteronomy 20:16-17, “However, in the cities of the nations the Lord your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes. Completely destroy them--the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites--as the Lord your God has commanded you.â€�

[Coldwolf]

Good question, and still unanswered.

The references in the Bible, were all Old Testement, so using that as a justification for support is moot. Jesus ushered in the covenant of grace, and Christians are supposed to follow the teachings of Christ, not the prophets and kings.

As far as even bringing Saddam into the equasion, Saddam was a secular Mulim, and didn't follow the teachings of Islam. He was a member of the Baath party, and Iraq, under Saddam was one of the most "western" nations in the Arab sphere of influence.

I know that Saddam wasn't a nice guy. I'm not saying he was. But trying to defend the war the United States is perputrating on the Iraqi people because of what Saddam did is asinine. There have been more Iraqis killed because of this war than in all the years of Saddams rule.

So professing Christians, please answer the question. If killing is a sin, how can you justify this war with the teachings of Christ?

[MadScot]

The New Testament invoked a more peaceful view of God.

Isaiah 2:3-4 The law will go out from Zion, the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. He will judge between the nations and will settle disputes for many peoples. They will beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation will not take up sword against nation, nor will they train for war anymore.

Romans 12:17-21 Never pay back evil for evil to anyone. Respect what is right in the sight of all men. If possible, so far as it depends on you, be at peace with all men. Never take your own revenge, beloved, but leave room for the wrath of God, for it is written, "Vengeance is Mine, I will repay," says the Lord. "But if your enemy is hungry, feed him, and if he is thirsty, give him a drink; for in so doing you will heap burning coals upon his head." Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.


Saint Augustine and Saint Thomas Aquinas are credited with developing the "just war" theory to which I know a portion of churchs abide by today.

There must be a just cause for the war.
War must be waged only in response to certain, grave and lasting damage inflicted by an aggressor.
The motive for war must be advancement of good or avoidance of evil.
The ultimate objective of war must be to bring peace.
Revenge, revolt, a desire to harm, dominate, or exploit and similar things are not justification for war.
Every possible means of peacefully settling the conflict must be exhausted first.
There must be serious prospects of success; bloodshed without hope of victory cannot be justified.
The war must be declared by a legitimate authority. Private individuals or groups should seek redress of their rights through their governments, not by acts of war.
The war must not cause greater evil than the evil to be eliminated.
Non-combatants (civilians) must not be intentionally harmed.
Prisoners and conquered peoples must be treated justly.

JMO but but I believe the Iraq war falls short on many of these ideals.

[BGW]

As most of you know...for me, the Golden Rule is enough for me to live by. If we applied this rule to wars past, present, and future, how can we not expect tragedies such as 9-11. The Golden Rule is found in one form or another in every religion.....yet it seems to be ignored more often than not.

[beautiful_mess38]

There is always going to be murder. Whether it be in a war or in your own home.
I'm a Christian and I beleave an eye for an eye if justified.

As far as war, it has nothing to do with what religion you are. I'm not the one making the call. And like I said above there has always been war and will always be.

To answer the question; "killing is a sin" . It depends on what the person is being killed for. Thats what war is about. We're also talking about this war in Iraq. Thats why I brought up Sadaam. Yes, he should be killed.

Is it ok for the terrorist to capture torture and kill. Is it ok for Americans to kill during war time. Is it ok for Christians, Catholics, Muslims to kill each other.

When those people go to meet thier maker, only he can tell them that answer.

[Patagoniamaniac]

Originally posted by beautiful_mess38:
In church today, Tom Anderson YLCC first missionary was captured in India along with we think Mary Cutter and some children.
(There will be a prayer service for them on Thurs. at 7pm)

There have always been wars. There will always be wars. I think Earth will come to an end so to speak before we ever see peace.

It doesnt matter what religion you are. For me there is only 1 God.
And as far as I'm concerned what Sadaam was doing was pure evil.
I do pray the citizens of Iraq can regain thier country with out having to live in fear of being captured and tortured.

Study the religion of Islam. Then ask your self that question again.

http://oakhurstonline.com/icon/applause.gif http://oakhurstonline.com/icon/yes.gif http://oakhurstonline.com/icon/applause.gif
Very well put messy... ....

[MadScot]

I beleave an eye for an eye if justified.
How does this apply to Iraq? I can see why it might be cause for his people to rise up against him but how does it apply to us invading. There were no 9-11 terrorists in Iraq. Or is this this the bastardized version of the golden rule do unto others before they can do unto you.

Let's go through the "just war ideals" one more time step by step

There must be a just cause for the war.
<span class="ev_code_RED">We were given many justifications some were even slightly plausable</span>

War must be waged only in response to certain, grave and lasting damage inflicted by an aggressor.
<span class="ev_code_RED">Kind of weak on this point but I'll conceed it anyway</span>

The motive for war must be advancement of good or avoidance of evil.
<span class="ev_code_RED">Again weak but somewhat believable</span>

The ultimate objective of war must be to bring peace.
<span class="ev_code_RED">Very weak but I'll still conceed this</span>

Revenge, revolt, a desire to harm, dominate, or exploit and similar things are not justification for war.
<span class="ev_code_RED">Things start to go astray but I won't lament here</span>

Every possible means of peacefully settling the conflict must be exhausted first.
<span class="ev_code_RED">Gotta give this a big no way no how </span>

There must be serious prospects of success; bloodshed without hope of victory cannot be justified.
<span class="ev_code_RED">Another big no way here these people have been fighting for thousands of years and Bush thinks we can make it all ok and they won't fight amongst themselves any more ya right.</span>

The war must be declared by a legitimate authority. Private individuals or groups should seek redress of their rights through their governments, not by acts of war.
<span class="ev_code_RED">No big arguement here</span>

The war must not cause greater evil than the evil to be eliminated.
<span class="ev_code_RED">We have spread tons of radioactive waste throughout their country causing health problems for generations that ranks pretty high on my evil scale</span>

Non-combatants (civilians) must not be intentionally harmed.
<span class="ev_code_RED">Can you say shock and awe. See next</span>

Prisoners and conquered peoples must be treated justly.
<span class="ev_code_RED">Can you say Abu Ghraib</span>

Of course the just war ideals are just so pre 9-11. In all of history we've never had a case where 3000 people were unjustly killed before right. http://oakhurstonline.com/icon/rolleyes2.gif.

[Californee Girl]

Just to be sure that Im not being moot ..

Jakob said, "Although I’ve read the bible a couple times it was a long time ago and I don’t remember specific passages about war being perhaps justified. Are they there?"

Thats what I personally responded to. I also added that I dont happen to support war, and that I struggle with violence in the name of religion myself.

[jakobscalpel]

Thanks for the replies everyone. Like I said, in no way did I post my message with any anti-Christian feeling. If anything it is the opposite. Whether this war is right or wrong is not my question. My question is this; how can a Christian who supports the war reconcile that support with the 6th commandment? As Messy said, she feels eye for an eye is sufficient justification. What do others think?

[jakobscalpel]

Originally posted by Californee Girl:
Just to be sure that Im not being moot ..


Thanks CG. I got what you were saying http://oakhurstonline.com/icon/happy.gif. And no, I wasn't kidding. Like I said, it has been a long time since I read the bible and I had forgotten what it said about wars or justified homicide.

[Yosemite Joy]

If someone, especially a self prescribed "Christian", can not see the evil that Bush is, I find that quite frightening. It is easy for all people to see how evil Saddam is/was. It has been pointed out, and the pictures burned into our psyche (gassed dead babies in mothers' arms, etc).

All Americans, of all religions and race, should be able to see Bush in a clearer image now, who he really is and what his agenda as a self appointed "war president" always was. It is really scary to think that we were bamboozled by this administration after 9/11, and into the war with Iraq.

I am not a Christian per say. Too difficult for me to separate what I learned as a child, what I believe in my head, to be fully and dutifully devoted to God. I have tried several times in my life, but alas, I can not even devote myself to AA because of the Christianity-based 12 steps. [would like to note, that I do not drink, do not have desire, and I though I believe that AA helped me quite a bit, stopping came from within myself]

Sorry I haven't answered your questions, because that would be impossible for me.